How tough are Land Rovers?

Do you think with the Wolf XD we are seeing the last of the military Land Rovers? There seems to be a growing trend towards light armoured wheeled vehicles which Land Rover does not produce directly, and a new military Land Rover wouyld be based on the new Defender which will probably be based on the Discovery III which seem overly complex for military operations.

Would be a bit of blow after 50 plus years of miliary service.

tim

(snip)

Armed forces are never going to go to all light armoured vehicles - they may be a larger proportion of utility vehicles, but both costs and operational difficulties (maintenance, weight, bulk) argue against using them where not needed.

Sounds very like the comments made twenty years ago with the introduction of a coil sprung utility vehicle based on the Range Rover (which it was as far as suspension and drive train were concerned). The armed forces round the world seem to have coped with that.

JD

Personally, I think the Wolf may well be the last Land Rover purchased in large numbers by HM Armed Forces. Not only do LR not manufacture the type of vehicle that is increasingly becoming the desired preference (i.e. lightly armoured, higher mobility, low maintenance and low life costs) but it would be uneconomic to develop one. There are several other vehicles already in trials with HMAF or about to be, some of which are truly awesome off-road.

I guess the question is; can LR survive without it's military contracts?

Regards Steve G

Or indeed, can it continue to develop its more profitable lines whilst still being seen as a military vehicle manufacturer?

This sounds like the basis for the case that Land Rovers could continue in military service. Yes or No?

If so what are we likely to see? The current Defender with an improved TD5 and modified to meet modern safety requirements ie. airbags, roll over etc or something based on the DIII?

Tim

In my view, the answer is yes. What we would like to see? Would like: a little wider and with more room for and aft. Maintain commonality with previous Defenders as far as possible. Very important to maintain flat glass for easy replacement and near vertical windows (reduces glasshouse effect more than just about any other vehicle sold today). Less plastic, or at any rate plastic that stands up to sunshine.

Expect to see: A completely new design with a common platform with the Disco (not necessarily the D3 - might introduce a new platform for its successor). New design will be optimised for modern production methods, but will not do away with meccano type construction entirely, so as to allow multiple body types. Will meet all current and foreseen safety and environmental requirements, and this will probably include a rounded front, although it may not look very rounded. Will have a lot of parts, possibly including engines and drive train components common with other Ford vehicles. It will still be a serious utility vehicle with capabilities at least equal to the current Defender, despite being designed with an eye to the SUV market. JD

The HMMWV is a good piece of machinery for its design purpose as are the LR Defender and Series vehicles. Those purposes are very different.

The width and size of the HMMWV make it ridiculous in American cities and impossible in others. Many people in the U.S. military would prefer a modern version of the M38/M151 type vehicle in addition to the HMMWV.

In addition, the HMMWV has compromises that sooner or later will catch up with it as a military vehicle. It has a civilian diesel as opposed to a multifuel engine-it will eat JP5 with a little oil in it but JP4, gasoline, heavy marine diesel fuels are out. And despite its size and weight it has no armoring per se.

Land Rovers were the traditional choice of people who really needed to get around in difficult places-as opposed to American Jeepers who were more interested in finding out how difficult a place they could get around in for recreational purposes. Because a diesel isn't offered, the modern version of the "real jeep"-the Wrangler-isn't fully taken seriously in many parts.

|> > |> No one has given me a clear answer on how tough Land Rovers are. |> > |> Especially compared to the Hummer (military version) or the other |> > |> military vehicles like the Unimog. |> > |>

|> > | |> > | |> > |They are not 'tough' in the way an Unimog is tough. For instance, a |> > |Unimog can have a lime spreader mounted to the rear body and carry and |> > |spread four or five tons of lime over ploughed but uncultivated land. |> > |A Land Rover cannot do this. The old Bedford military wagons could do |> > |this. |> > |Compare apples with apples not oranges. |> >

|> > American soldiers abuse their vehicles in ways that European |> > soldiers do not. The Unimog and the Hummer, being used as a |> > reference against what I would compare other vehicles. US trucks |> > will not take the operator abuse that the Unimog or Hummer take. |> > Can the LR take that level of abuse? |> >

|> > Also we have seen Army Rangers go "dune buggying" in Afghanistan. |> > They like to pop the vehicle into the air over the top of low |> > hills. Sort of like Baja. US troops are very rough on vehicles. | | The HMMWV is a good piece of machinery for its design purpose as are |the LR Defender and Series vehicles. Those purposes are very |different. | | The width and size of the HMMWV make it ridiculous in American cities |and impossible in others. Many people in the U.S. military would |prefer a modern version of the M38/M151 type vehicle in addition to |the HMMWV. | | In addition, the HMMWV has compromises that sooner or later will |catch up with it as a military vehicle. It has a civilian diesel as |opposed to a multifuel engine-it will eat JP5 with a little oil in it |but JP4, gasoline, heavy marine diesel fuels are out. And despite its |size and weight it has no armoring per se. | | Land Rovers were the traditional choice of people who really needed |to get around in difficult places-as opposed to American Jeepers who |were more interested in finding out how difficult a place they could |get around in for recreational purposes. Because a diesel isn't |offered, the modern version of the "real jeep"-the Wrangler-isn't |fully taken seriously in many parts.

The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal.

Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots.

I've been made aware of non-drivers (there are some in the US, in the big cities) being in the US Army and being expected to drive a Hummer.

And not the emergency get us the hell out of here situations...

speaking as a former one of the "idiots"-- I'll inform you that a soldier's job isn't exactly to play nice and gentle.

I'm not going there.

On or around Tue, 08 Jun 2004 04:19:55 GMT, "burntkat IS AT sc.rr.com" enlightened us thusly:

true, however breaking your transport is apt to be a bad move, and making the transport unbreakable is not the best solution to the problem.

Like chucking them out of the back of a plane?

Actually, that seems like a rather cost effective solution for me at present - gotta be cheaper to fix...

well, FYI-- anything can be broken, and we had no major problems whatsoever with them in Gulf1.

probably wise.

|> >The question is whether the LR can take the abuse that the HMMWV |> >has to take from US soldiers. These lads are brutal. |> |> Perhaps you should train them not to be? Rather than looking for an |> idiot-proof vehicle, do something about the idiots. | |I've been made aware of non-drivers (there are some in the US, in the |big cities) being in the US Army and being expected to drive a Hummer. | |And not the emergency get us the hell out of here situations...

The US is not a nation of farm boys these days. Yet we expect soldiers and Marines to have certain life skills. Driving, and auto maintenance, are common task skills that all are expected to have. Also there are too many who, being young, just like to push the hell out of a vehicle.

Thus can the LR Defender take the same level of abuse that the Hummer does?

I can't imagine British squaddies being any kinder to their vehicles than their American counterparts are. Land Rovers have been taking this abuse for over 50 years now - maybe when Hummers have been in continuous service for

50 years with hundreds of armys around the world you can come back to this discussion and tell us whether the hummer can take the same level of abuse that the Land Rover has already proved it can.