I've been robbed !

The governments own ONS says its true.

Steve

Same here. Same for someone in reasonably well paid work with 2 kids. Same for a couple of lads I know that work for the same company as I do. I'm 90 quid a year better off at just under 19 grand, the lads that work with me break even exactly (They drive further to get to work & drink a bit more.), the one with the kids but on more money including his wife's income is 150 quid or so better off, & someone earning 14000 a year in full time work (Not rare round here) is about 40 quid a year worse off, I'd guess.

Possibly some of the 1000 or so who have lost their jobs this last year or two round here may be better off than they would be otherwise, but that's a different discussion.

That's before the changes in council tax, of course. (Up about 8% this year, I believe. Mine's up just over 50 quid a year, but I live in a band A property.)

Incidentally, ignoring housing costs & loan interest, my cost of living has increased 12 or 15% in the last year or so. (Petrol, food, electricity, & other household bills.)

The figures in the budget report say the government are going to take

4.6 billion in extra tax, & intend to pay out an extra 0.5 billion in tax refunds. That's income tax & national insurance, ignoring the indirect stuff. Overall, they're hoping for a 26 billion net increase in income, which is an increase of just under 5% as against a predicted 2% growth in the economy.

I'm with you on that, Austin.

Eh? I thought you woz like me and getting Working Tax Credit and (possibly) Child Tax Credit. Both of which have been fiddled with to compensate for the removal of the 10% band. Remember "Benefits" ain't ju= st the dole, income support, housing, council tax etc...

IIRC there is (or was) a calculator on the BBC site where you could plug= in your figures and see if you gained or lost. Here we are:

Tells me I'm around a grand better off. Most of that coming from Tax Credits (I have two children). The NI figure is wrong, that pages says I= 'm =A311.60 better off but the Class 2 Self Employed rate has gone up by

10p/week, maybe they have put the Class 4 down or shifted the threshold?=

Got a link, as I'd like to see what the context is as from my own experiences, people seem a damned sight better off now than they did when I were a lad.

In theory I'm better off by about £400 but in practice I now work for myself having lost my job last year, and my mortgage comes up for renewal in a few months -- currently my interest rate is about 4.6%, ouch! That's not going to be fun adjusting...

Sounds a bit harsh I know but when I was on income support or basically getting subsidised by the state (as anyone on less than 18K a year is) I didn't feel I had the right to moan, I took what I could and pulled myself up. Not relevant for those who are disabled or ill though, having had two parents in that state I don't begrudge them a penny. However while swanning around at the arse-end of society I met an awful lot of people who should be hosed off the decks into the sea.

Yes, rather perversely apparently manufacturing is on the up due to the falling strength of the pound, and there's even talk of opening up some coal mines..

Bear in mind that the top 12% of the population pay 60% of the tax income IIRC, so more power to them. The "poor" can still afford a whole shitload more than I could when I was skint, they're happy to breed like bunnies too.

Ah but, the GAP between the "rich" and "poor" is what we are talking about as the rich-er and poor-er. When poverty is now defined as a particular percentage below the average, the poor are of course always with us, although many can still afford resources that even the relatively rich in other countries might envy.

I'll dig out a link for you.

Steve

Who gives a sod about that, it's how you are doing relevant to how well you were doing that counts. There's too much of an anti-success culture and the whole idea of analyzing the difference between the richest and the poorest is a symptom of that, if someone does well then more power to them, they almost invariably make a far greater contribution to the state than the poorest in pure financial terms and that lowers the taxes for the bottom-feeders.

Also not a good measure IMHO, what counts is how well you are doing compared to last year, not how well you are doing compared to an average. If someone has made a million more than you, then great, I'd like to do the same but off my own back thanks.

These days, entertainment is so much more varied and cheaper, there's stuff available for free that would have boggled my mind when I was a teenager, but somehow we're going to the dogs?

I agree with that. The current powers that be were elected on a promise to reduce the gap, and have actually failed.

Steve

Seems I'm £135 worse off, thanks a bunch!

I managed to clear my home loan a year or three ago, thank goodness. I think you'll find good & bad points about working for yourself. More freedom, but less security and so on....

I'll agree with all that. I've been on the dole now & again, & it's a useful safety net, but I've always got off as soon as possible. The longest it ever took me was 6 weeks, IIRC, in the early 80s economic low. Disability benefit, likewise, as long as the system's not abused. There was a family living near me until about 3 years ago who were third generation unemployed. "Too ill to work", until the father died of an overdose.

Shame it came too late to save the potbanks. Some of the workers have got jobs in the new distribution warehouses that are being built round here, but not all. In my opinion, as well as others, closing the mines was always a stupid idea, it's just that my reasons for believing it aren't the same as most others I meet.

That's how you get your own flat if you're stuck at home, I believe. Produce a child, & you move to near the top of the housing list. They make a profit on each child, too, under the benefit system, depending on how they live.

On or around Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:48:02 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice" enlightened us thusly:

You can't get those if you don't have a family and/or are self-employed, AFAIK.

It's like the con about how you can be part-time employed (say doing 20 hours per week) and get IS to top up yer money, but you can do 20 hours a week SE and because you're SE that's automatically full-time, and you can't get owt.

Just put my pedants hat on, and as a lurker perhaps I should shut up.

If poverty is a particular percentage below the average, then we will never get rid of poverty. 20% of 50% for example, will still be there regardless of the change in income/tax/wealth.

I'll get my coat

Giles

Agreed you need dependant kids to get Child Tax Credit but I'm self employed and get Working Tax Credit. Pretty sure I'm not falsely claiming, the forms have spaces for figues containing "Income from Self Employment". B-)

WTC is based on your income and hours worked and isn't a great deal compared to CTC but if they want to give me money I'll take it, I'm not proud. I paid enough PAYE and NI when I was in full time employment...

I've not seriously looked at Income Support, it's one of the means tested ones and I have more than 8k in the bank which instantly stops any of the means tested ones. Like Council Tax Benefit & Housing Benefit but not Incapacity Benefit if you can't work due to sickness or injuury. Yes the Self Employed can get IB. Again IB isn't much but it'll stop you starving.

Tells us we are all of £27 quid a year better off.

Lizzy

Which is exactly what I said:- "When poverty is now defined as a particular percentage below the average, the poor are of course always with us "

Steve

On or around Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:57:06 +0100, Steve Taylor enlightened us thusly:

what bothers me these days is the "national average wage" and how far below it my income is.

On or around Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:05:02 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice" enlightened us thusly:

You can't get IS if you're self-employed, because you are, by definition, employed more than 30 hours per week, even if you're not actually working that many hours, unless it's changed.

Perhaps I should look at WTC. My income is low enough that I don't PAY bloody tax.

Yeah the line of work I'm in means I rarely have a pipeline, I don't usually know if I'll have any work next week until the Wednesday of the week before, which is unnerving.. Mind you so far I've been able to maintain my income while only working 2 weeks a month :-P Hopefully the customer list will grow, seems to be.

In my case I was stuck between years at University, it took me 6 years to finish a 3-year degree due to financial and health problems, so was on the dole for some of the inbetween time, worked for some of it, and due to being eligible for a grant but not getting it until halfway through the year I fell through the beaurocratic cracks and couldn't get dole or the grant so had no income for a while! Could have got a job but actually enjoyed roughing it for a while living in a number of derelict houses, it was quite an adventure at the time. Maggie Thatcher put paid to that a few years later with the "Criminal Justice Act", a mish-mash of needless goose-stepping for the Daily Mail.

I always thought that was a myth until I worked in a sawmill and met people who were doing it.. He had a job but the pay was so low he qualified for benefits and a council house but was on the waiting list, so him and his girlfriend decided that they were going to have some kids anyway at some point so just had them and let the state pull the extra weight required and jump the council house waiting list.

Average wage about 23/24k, likewise I'm well below that but fortunately don't have a mortgage or pay rent, so a low income doesn't threaten the roof over our heads in quite so directly as it does for many.

The other thing that bothers me is "fuel poverty" defined as a household spending more than 10% of their income on energy. We spend about 25% on oil and electricity. Particularly in the last year with the price of oil heading for the stratosphere.