Lib Dems plan a £2,000 road tax

and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this policy in is...???!

Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the image of the 4x4'er so much tho.

Matt

It's all they can come up with to try and sound different from the other Tory Party's. And they wonder why people won't go to the polls.......

Richard

Absolutely lunatic, as all policies of the unelectable tend to be. Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it at about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes SIX times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper car!!

The problem with the 4x4 school brigade is that they don't have to actually exist in order to cause an image problem, as I found out when my neighbour complained about the school run and said "they're all in

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, buying a new car to be "green" is totally nuts.

Given that pretty much anyone who works at a desk doesn't need to be in the office (there are exceptions of course), perhaps all those receptionists, call centre workers, accountants, managers, tech support staff etc etc who don't do physical work should stay at home and work from there. There are problems to overcome on that front, but they're easier to solve than congestion and pollution.

Autocar did a recent road test and tested a number of cars on identical roads, in the city, on the motorway, and on a track for fuel consumption. The results were interesting and also showed the real world mpg against the theoretical Gov figures.... Best "green" car first..

1. Toyota Aygo+ 1.4L Diesel. Av mpg 52.4
2. Toyota Prius T-Spirit. Av mpg 44.9
3. Smart Fortwo Grandstyle. Av mpg 45.3
4. Honda Civic Hybrid 1.4 IMA Av mpg 41.3
5. Ford Focus 1.8iFFV av mpg 26.4
6. Citroen C2 1.4i Stop & Start Av mpg 30.5
7. Saab 9-5 2.0t BioPower Av mpg 28.1
8. Lexus RX400h SE-L Av mpg 22.7
9. Range Rover Sport Supercharged Av mpg 12.9

The actual breakdown of the figures is interesting too.

On Thu, 18 May 2006 17:17:13 +0100, Matthew Maddock scribbled the following nonsense:

s'all right, some of our SMT at school suggested banning 4x4's from entering the school gates, until we pointed that at least 4 of the teaching staff would not come to school.......

My grandfather has a Prius, after a year of ownership and telling us how wonderful it is, he now admits that it gets 45mpg. 70% of his driving is around town, in which I would expect it to run on the battery all the time until it runs low enough to require the IC engine to recharge the batteries. In reality (I have driven it) as soon as you touch to accelerator it starts the engine to give drive, and in my experience only switches off the engine when you are either not accelerating, or when you hit the 'battery only' button - but even that is a bit misleading because as soon as the battery discharges even a little bit it runs the engine to charge it again. My Espace gets better MPG than the Prius, and both my fathers and my sisters diesel VW's easily get 50+MPG. I hammered my fathers Touran today and could only get it down to 38.7, and that was with four adults and two children in it going around town!

I don't know what Toyota were doing with the Prius, but as far as I can tell it is a complete waste of time and money.

Matt

ah but those are just the type of loons that vote Lib Dim hug a tree take little darlings to school and park outside the school on the zigzags. Derek

Interesting figures. Apparently ,according to the on-board computer, my wife's 1.9 TDi Doblo is as good as the matchbox Aygo?

According to both the onboard computer and my fuel records, so is my 2.5 V6 Rover 75 - although that's only since it was LPGd and had the original air filter ripped out and replaced with what looks like a K&N - and that milage is on petrol - I get similar on gas - 55mpg round town - nice!

P.

A good rough guide for comparisons is vehicle weight, perhaps more for stop-start motoring than constant speed. And the differences between

But engine types do matter, both sensible power-weight ratio and general efficiency.

A lot of this can be masked by driving style. I know that I routinely drove with better MPG figures from the 'puter than my father did.

Personally, I don't desire to drive along motorways at 100mph, but a car that has the power and handling to safely sustain that speed is a lot better at 70mph than a Smart with the engine running flat out. That doesn't mean it has to be all that much bigger, but the design optimisations are different.

For a while, 4x4s were the only car-like vehicles that had the features needed by a larger family. There are alternatives now.

Some time ago I looked at getting a Volkswagen Lupo 3L but they're not available in this country. Real-world MPG figures of close to 100MPG from a 3-cylinder diesel. Audi did a tiny car that was similar, also not available in this country. The Lupo 3L gets about 68MPG in exclusively town-based driving, which is impressive. It can be out-accelerated by a Defender 300TDi though ;-)

When comparing like-for-like designs that is true, but aerodynaics have to be taken into account when comparing differing designs. As a rather radical example the power used to overcome drag (as a percentage of fuel used) is way higher on a motorbike than a family saloon - motorbikes are (surprisingly) terribly inefficient at speed.

Agreed - an engine that is suitabe for off-road use is never going to be as efficient, particularly at high speed, as one designed for high speed from the outset. LR got a Queens Award for Technological Achievement for going some way to wards resolving this with the

Tyre pressures can make the biggest difference on a "family saloon", perhaps not so noticable on a Defender!

As you say, it depends on the design of the engine - small engines can be very efficient at high speed if that's the design goal (not that that's much good in a car designed for going round town like the Smart). I've often wondered what happened to the Japanese research into ceramic engines in the 80's - they had tiny, very, very high speed engines producing prodigious power but they seem to have faded away.

Sort of - the Espace concept was bought off Chrysler Europe and put into production about the same time as 4x4's started being used as Chelsea Tractors, but failed to become fashionable until relative recently. Plus as they tend to be driven by the very people who complain about 4x4's, they are not going to be looked at very carfully. (See the post on this group about the Anti's in Tesco's car park a few weeks back).

Richard

It's a major cost factor for commercial vehicles too, especially given how many tyres they have on the road.

I'd have thought that sidewall depth and tread width would be big contributors, both higher on a Defender than an average Eurobox.

|| As a rather radical example the power used to overcome drag (as a || percentage of fuel used) is way higher on a motorbike than a || family saloon - motorbikes are (surprisingly) terribly inefficient || at speed.

Indeed - hence the way that even a modest sports bike will out-drag a Ferrari up to about 80mph, but the car will sail past once over the ton, however powerful the bike.

Matthew Maddock uttered summat worrerz funny about:

Sounds like it would benifit from an LPG conversion ;-)

Lee D