Tax exempt rebuilds - definitive answers?

"Ruaridh" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

A lot depends on the attitude of the MOT tester. If he (or she!) decides that it's an old landy, then no probs unless a very knowledgeable plod should pull you. If, however, VOSA carry out the rumour that they are to introduce a "vehicle identity check" ammendment to the MOT rules then there may well be issues. It is rumoured that there will be another question to be answered on the dreaded computer, something along the lines of "has the vehicle been obviously altered from the manufactured condition", this is allegedly intended to catch out all the young chav's with their dangerously lowered suspension and loose bodykits etc but it has obvious implications for landy owners. The assumption is that if the answer is "yes", then it will be a case of "refer to VOSA for SVA". I have seen cars turn up for MOT and sent them away simply because they have been modified to such an extent that they can't climb onto the ramps without grounding, or rear springs that have been lowered to such an extent that they unseat themselves when you jack the car up and don't automatically reseat again - that is dangerous! That is just two examples of what the alleged ammendment is designed to catch out, although current MOT rules would fail the non-relocating spring anyway. This is only currently a rumour, there was mention made in some of the more trashy car mags (max power etc) about 9 months ago (ish), with the resultant uproar from the chav fraternity. Badger.

I am fairly sure that the only way to do it and say on the strictly legal side would be to use a complete early range rover as the donor for all the mechanical componants, the body used has nothing to do with it, even if it ends up looking like a series land rover it remains officially a Range Rover. As for the chassis used it really dosn't matter, hence the reason why a kit car can still retain the original vehicles identity. If you build such a vehicle but keep it registered as a series vehicle and some narky soul grasses you up, You may well end up with a Q reg and a demand for unpaid road tax at the least and find your self trying to explain why you are in possesion of a ringer.

Your interpretation of the DVLA page is quite correct. They have been very clever in designing a system that allows you to have a good old muck about with your motor, but not register a new vehicle as an old one (by claiming to have replaced everything), for example to get free road tax.

Richard

As an ex-MOT tester I had a fair few Land Rovers coming through that had coils on with tax exempt status. as I was only there to test the vehicle the tax had bugger all to do with me. I think you'll find most testers are the same. You could modify the chassis to incorperate coils thus keeping its original identity or fit a new chassis and say it's the original thats been modified you would probably get away with free tax but if you get caught, you may have to pay the back tax that they think you should have paid and a fine BICBW

At present if the tester enters the vehicle data and it is different to that held on record then I believe the vehicle needs a VIC before it can be taxed It can still be tested on the 'wrong' data The problem is that a SVA isn't a MOT the vehicle will still need a MOT after having a SVA. I tested quite a few imports that had been to SVA and then needed a MOT before being registered

I had a few turn up that couldn't get across the brake rollers I insisted they drove the vehicle across is they wanted it tested and all damage was their responsibility

The other risk that hasn't been mentioned is that your insurance may be invalid, something you may not find out unless you have an accident and they send a loss adjuster to look closely. Greg

Thanks very much to all who replied. This looks like a good newsgroup: well informed and articulate - you don't find that much on t'internet these days!!!! The pre-73 RangeRover suggestion is a good one, I hadn't thought of that. (Although one might be hard to come by?) That would probably give the best chance of proving you had used enough of the old vehicle even if using a new galv. chassis. Otherwise, as it seems to be common knowledge that it shouldn't be done and things are only getting stricter, I don't think I'll chance it. The insurance issue is always there, might never be a problem esp. with 3rd party but you can bet if there was an incident where an assessor was involved they'd jump at the chance to not pay out which could be nasty. If I go with coils etc. and get an SVA and pay the tax, it seems a bit pointless to not just build up a 90" defender type seeing as bulkheads etc. are much cheaper. So I might just use a leaf-spring chassis after all, it won't be that bad!! :-) Might seem extreme to go to these lengths to avoid road tax but I really want an old landy where it doesn't matter if it lies for a couple of months at a time not getting used much - kind of hard to justify if it's sitting there with a full tax disc. Thanks again, Ruaridh

On or around Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:50:13 +0100, beamendsltd enlightened us thusly:

yeah, but it gets involved, doesn't it...

My SIII has a relatively iffy chassis, for example - I've just replaced the off-side front, with the spring hanger, which of course has the chassis number stamped thereon... I stamped the number on the new bit, and I still have the old bit, should anyone care to inspect it, but there's no way top prove that it actually came from the chassis on the vehicle. The number matches the plate on the bulkhead, but of course that could be removed and riveted to a different one.

now consider the next stage, I miraculously end up solvent and decided to replace the chassis and bulkhead... now you can replace a chassis, it's in the rules, with another of the same design. fair enough, and presumably the old chassis number gets stamped on the new chassis (and I suppose it's possible that the chassis manufacturer does that) and in theory they could require the old chassis returned. But then the old chassis is already "not proven" so to speak. Now, I change the bulkhead and remove the plate and rivet it to the new bulkhead...

OK, some stuff has dates cast or stamped into it. But everything *can* be replaced, and legally, at that, one bit at a time, on the same vehicle - so I could end up with a SIII which was registered in 1971 and which has 1982 axles (fitted second hand), a new chassis and bulkhead, a recon engine and gearbox...

now there would be a link all the way through, but it'd not be the same vehicle that was built in Solihull in 1971.

On or around 14 Aug 2006 16:12:31 -0700, "Ruaridh" enlightened us thusly:

IIRC on the points system you have to use the chassis and one major component. You can't get enough points without the chassis. summat like the components add up to 5 and the chassis is 5 points, but you need 6 points to keep the identity.

The grey area is when you do that and then replace the chassis 'cos it's rotten with a new one. I believe that if you buy a new chassis from land rover they want the old one back, otherwise you can't have the same chassis number. Dunno if other makers operate the same - it's what I'd do if I were making the rules - trouble is, implementing it could be a pain - I'd not, myself, start a chassis-up rebuild without having the new chassis already on site.

Apart from building on a very early Range Rover, you might be able to adapt a 90/110/Defender with a Series-style windscreen. The elements that come to mind as needing a bit of work are the windscreen hinges, and replace the roof. AFAIK, the hard-top sides are identical, and the top of the rear door has the same shape.

I'm less certain how a canvas tilt would match up.

Once you have the vehicle, a registration-mark transfer could give you a suitably-dated number, but not tax-exempt status.

And if you were prepared to work that hard just to save =A3170 a year I'd say you deserved it 8-)

Greg

That's about whether it gets a Q plate or not, and is nothing to do with the points system. The points system is about changing specs of things - chassis, suspension, transmission, etc. Keeping an original part, e.g. the chassis *retains* 5 (I think it is) points, keeping the suspension retains something like 2 points, and the engine is 8 points. You add up the points retained, and if it's less 11, or whatever it is, your vehicle keeps it's identity, if not it has to be re-registered. The upshot is you can change either the engine, or everything else - change the engine too and you fail to retain enough points - by one! Changing a leaf sprung chassis for another, new, one won't make any difference to the points - the chassis supplier will help with the paper work. If you change it for a coil sprung version, you have retained 2 points less (or whatever it is), but that doesn't matter because you are still retaining all you other points. If the chassis is supplied as a modified replacement, then again the supplier can sort out the paperwork, and you won't necesserily need a Q plate. If you fit a s/h chassis, or a new one without the paperwork, you will need to get a Q plate.

At least, that's how I read it - I wanted to check but the DVAL web site has turned into complete mess and I can't find it any more!

Richard

I don't want to start posting text from the DVLA site but in a nutshell..... There are slightly different rules for kit cars, "radically altered vehicles" and rebuilt vehicles. Rebuilt vehicles don't use the points system, they just need the same spec. chassis and 2 major components from the original. Note that front & rear suspension together count as 1 component. The key thing is the replacement chassis must be of the same specification and have paperwork from manufacturer. For RAV the total points required is 8, and the chassis retains 5. Everything else retains 2 except the engine which gets 1. But even if you make up the 8 points with mechanicals and running gear, if a second-hand or modified chassis is used an SVA will be required and a Q-plate issued. So by my interpretation there's no way that a landrover with a modified chassis (new coil conversion, shortened s/h range-rover etc.) which is running on a pre-73 plate can possibly be legal (unless the conversion was done before 1973!!) (There are further rules for kit cars which I won't go into). I guess because of the unique nature of Landrovers with extreme longevity and high interchageability of parts, there was largely a blind eye turned to all of this in the past, also because they are fairly slow and safe on the roads. However we can't stop the march of technology and it looks like hybrid builders are incresingly going to fall foul of this in the near future, because of the computer MOT.

In response to the comment about all the work to save the road tax, in my case I was going to be doing the work anyway, the free tax is just a bonus. But you're right if it starts involving too many donor vehicles, expense and hassle then it's not worth it which is why I've decided to just to a straightforward rebuild.

As regards numbers from reg. dealers; I don't fully understand SVA / Q-plate rules but I'm guessing the date of registration will be after the SVA inspection. Therefore assuming the rules are still like they used to be, i.e. a vehicle was only allowed to carry a private plate that was older than it's registration (to stop people making cars look newer than they are), it would technically be possible to put an 06 plate on your hybrid!! Somehow I don't think the DVLA would wear this, you get into "certificate of newness" territory for that. Which I think is why repaired write-offs, specials etc. that get issued Q-plates have to keep them. BICBW.

what point though would an original chassis become unoriginal, after you have had enough repairs to it. I would guess it is possible to replace enough of it over time to render the original status debatable.

Its all ridiculous anyhow. The continuity over time with a series of small changes ought to outrank a serios radical all at once replacement job of practically everything.

The "same broom" argument: i.e. "Look, this old yard broom has had six new heads and three new handles, bit it's still the same old broom". I'm sure we can all read and interpret - one way or another - the rules, but has anyone actually put any of this to the test and put their hand up saying "yep, I've coil sprang my SIIA and mated an SD1 engine to the old gearbox"? Or are the majority of these tax-exempt conversions that crop up on eBay highly dubious and/or previously owned/built by people who have quietly kept their heads down about the changes?

Steve

The points system does add up over time - you always work from the original spec, so if someone changed the engine a few years back you've already lost those points, even if it wasn't declared.

Richard

In a word - yes! There was a serving Policeman hereabouts who had such a vehicle (NOT Lee!), a coil sprung V8 theoretical SII. He genuinely didn't know about the points system - the vehicle was sold shortly after finding out!

Richard

On or around Wed, 16 Aug 2006 08:29:51 +0100, beamendsltd enlightened us thusly:

ah. does that apply if the engine was replaced by the same spec, or only if you change to a different engine?

Wouldn't the age of the engine have a bearing on this, for instance changing the engine for a contemporary but reconditioned one still from the tax exempt era?