OT: Kids driving legalities?

"Austin Shackles" wrote...............

That just brought back memories, sounds like the ones I used to drive at age 8 in the summer holidays where my old lady bottled milk for a big local farm. Fordson Standard? They used to send me to get it from the shed first thing and couldn't work out how I managed to start it. Piss easy when you're only light. Standing on the handle, the slower you turned them the better the spark with that spring driven magneto (can't remember what the system was called).

Martin

On or around Tue, 04 Mar 2008 21:35:08 +0000, AJH enlightened us thusly:

it also takes surprisingly little slope for a heavy combo like that (and it is a big roller, with extra weight on it) to run away. Which is why young kids are not supposed to be doing it unsupervised, of course. The other thing is that with a tractor fitted with a cab, unless it's very shagged, the safest option is to stay on it and hold tight, not bail out. You're a lot more likely to be hurt/killed trying to jump clear. Even if it's going over, the cab, on any half-way recent tractor, is supposed to stand up to a rollover, unless, as I say, it's considerably below par due to rust or poor maintenance or such.

The thing's ended up in the cut with the cab above water, and by staying put he'd likely have survived.

Yes and the energy that has to be dissipated in braking it goes up with the square of the velocity, so it's important to rectify a runaway before it gathers too much speed. Time spent worrying about the embarrassment of wrecking the tractor is time wasted. Experience tell you not to de clutch but a learner is told to come to a halt by depressing the clutch and the brake simultaneously...

There cannot be many situations where it is safer to bail ( I note your correction;-)) out. I cannot say what happened but my aim would be to put the roller across the slope and neither above or below me, even if that did risk turning the tractor over. If it goes then hold the steering wheel tight and brace for the inevitable impact, and expect some bruises btdtgtts.

Look at the width of the roller compared with the position of the tractor doors...

AJH

In message , Tim Jones writes

There's a big difference between farm machinery and a Passenger carrying automobile such as a Range Rover in this context.

It's a long while since I was at all involved in farming but I do seem to remember legislation being brought in concerning farm machinery and a minimum age. It stuck in my mind as I had driven tractors well below that age myself.

In message , Oily writes

Standard Fordson I think. Only one pedal for brake and clutch. Very hairy

In message , Austin Shackles writes

Perhaps analogous to the burglar falling through the factory roof - which is why you'll see signs saying Danger Do not climb on Roof or similar.

So to be safe a) do not use a field with a public footpath b) put up large signs on each side of field saying "Unqualified Driver at work Enter at own risk" or something similar.

Pay attention at the back. Yes, I know which tractor it was. :-) The magneto drive was what I was talking about, turn the engine slow and the magneto used to wind a spring up and then let go in the firing position, if you cranked it over fast it didn't work and was difficult to start. Impulse magneto I think they were called, BICBW. I can even remember the VRMs of those tractors from so long ago, how sad is that? DWW454 and ANB913.

Martin

Are you sure there's such a big difference between a tractor and a RR?

They both have the potential to cause injury to occupants and bystanders.

What matter to the lawyers is if they're being used for work or recreation.

The recreational use of tractors is limited...

On or around Fri, 07 Mar 2008 11:24:16 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@btopenworld.com (Tim Jones) enlightened us thusly:

yes, but then again, imagine for example your tractor/bale/8-bale sledge combo, which by modern standards isn't even big, it's a lot harder to manage on average ground than a solo rangie. Admittedly, you'd be more tempted to go silly places in the rangie :-) But I'm assuming that no-one would be daft enough to let an untrained child loose in a rangie on difficult terrain, and that may be an unwise assumption.

Now, if you put your stockbox full of sheep on the back of the rangie, it's a different kettle of fish, and it could get out of shape quite impressively on relatively modest terrain.

the bigger modern tractors are probably twice the weight of yours, and likewise the modern machinery is equally bigger.

When I were a lad I drove fergies and similar, and more by luck than anything else, despite the steep ground we were working, I never got one out of control. I did have the massey 65 and baler combo run away once on a steep slope, but luckily the slope was short and leveled out at the bottom of the field, so by the time it got out of shape and started to spin it was coming to a stop anyway. On a longer slope, it'd have pushed the tractor round sideways and maybe rolled it... In that respect a newer tractor would be better - on the old Massey in low-1 and sliding there was no credible chance of getting it into a higher gear which is what it'd have needed to get it back under control, whereas modern tractors you could go up a few gears to recover grip, and have more chance. Same applies to the 101 on Salisbury plain that we had the video of a bit back. However, you have to have both the knowledge and nerve, and quick enough reactions, to do that successfully and that's where the mostly-untrained 12yo is going to run into problems.

I would have thought that within the common snese constraints of what it is responible to let a child do tractors have as much recreational value as any other vehicle.

The average child driving a tractor will be doing it for the same motivations as a child riding an ATV around a pony paddock, they percieve it as fun or a part of growing up. To make a distinction between work and recreation is absurd.

Thats why it's not legal to drive such a combination until you're 16 (or maybe 17 my memories slipping). At 13 you can drive with light trailed but unpowered implements or trailers on level fields with no field edges of ditches, banks or rivers ( and presumably canals?).

The problem taht I would see with a RR or LR is that even on such a field the temptation to travel faster exists. More children are killed on recreational vehicles than tractors every year, but we seem to have a blindspot on legislation to address this.

Largely irrelevant they are also easier to drive, the bigger machinery is off limits until 16 or 17 years of age.

Which is why the restrictions exist and should be apllied evenly across both working and recreational vehicles. People may choose to ignore or break rules but they should be applied evenly accross all areas of vehicle useage.

Nope.

The distinction si that when you work your employer has a 'duty of care' and when you're playing games he doesn't.

Nope.

I can't legally allow my own child play on a tractor on the farm. Both you and the powers that be are using weasel words over this.

I'm a re-enactor, I have the same problem with explosives.

It may sound silly.

However...

When someone's daddy owns a cannon and their kids say 'Why can't we have a go dad' and they have to reply that 'You're not covered by the H&S legislation'.

Yes. One is an agricultural machine the other is not. There fore any legislation pertaining to agricultural machinery (age restrictions) will apply to one and not the other.

In message , Tim Jones writes

Ah. But don't assume that the law follows common sense or logic.

Silly me, how could I be blind or stupid enough to actually assess the risks instead of looking at meaningless legal definitions and divisions ;)

The whole thread was about the risks posed by the legislation, so yes, silly you!