RoW and F&M

Every path in the zone plus a safety net around as well, I reckon. Many walkers have no idea of country code or in my opinion give a toss either, all they demand is their rights forgetting there are two sides to a balanced arguement !!

Yeah but you're forgetting that there are two sides to every argument as well.

For a start, ramblers and other RoW users are far outnumbered by birds, rats, mice, insects, all the other animals and the wind, and studies from the last F&M epidemic showed that walkers were not significant in spreading the disease (according to the article I linked to).

Secondly, paths on the infected farms have been closed down, so even the negligible likelihood of a walker/rider/4x4 catching it has been reduced even further.

Thirdly, in the last F&M epidemic, IIRC the loss to other rural tourism-based industries was either as great or greater than the loss to farming, but no compensation was available to them, hence the MPs shouting loudly that the countryside is still open for tourism.

No point in closing down RoW for ramblers, horse riders and 4x4 users unless there's a real need to, and those who have the information to hand don't see that there is a need. Farmers are panicky and have nothing to lose from closing RoW so are calling for it to be done, whether there's a need or not. Surrounding industries have a lot to lose from the message that the area is quarantined however so don't do it unless it's required.

Some farmers in far-flung parts of the country, far from any infection, are putting up "RoW closed" signs on their land in part of their continuing attempts to keep people off the RoW on their land, some landowners just hate the idea of a RoW (don't buy the bloody land then!).

yep Ian two sides that will include the idiots seen walking ( and cycling ) on adjacent farms to the outbreak by a BBC reporter and ignoring warning notices and police tape( its rediculous that ROW on and around the affected farm have only been closed off today). Most animals ( excepting man ) range within a territory generally the larger animals have a corresponding larger area foxes up to 30 sq km although maybe as small as 20 hectares mice as little as a few metres of hedgrow hopefully there are no deer in the area . A man however getting nicely contaminated by walking in grass dribbled with virus laden saliva ( first obvious sign of F&M ) can then jump into his deux cheveau and contaminate a field many miles away and start a fresh outbreak. I'll include the cautionary note from a website dealing with F&M in the US. I would like to hear some cautionary advice to avoid the area from the Ramblers Association rather than the rather pathetic statement on the website and S.F.A. from the WWF . I was planning on calling on a farming friend who runs beef cattle on my way back from Buxton this weekend needless to say I will be taking the sensible approach and emailing to see how they are instead. Derek

I'll include the cautionary note from a website dealing with F&M in the US

Although Foot and Mouth Disease does not pose a serious risk to human health, humans can act as vectors for the virus and can spread infection among animals or between farms. Methods of transmission of FMD include: a.. Direct contact with clinically ill, recovered (carrier) animals or exposed vaccinated animals: virus particles can be found in body fluids including urine, feces, saliva, s**en and milk and also in exhaled breath. b.. The FMD virus can survive in the lungs and nasal passages of humans for several days and in the tonsils for several weeks. Virus particles are released and can infect susceptible animals when the person exhales. c.. The FMD virus can survive for several weeks on clothes and shoes especially if they are dirty. d.. Pets or other animals roaming the area can carry the virus. e.. Contaminated meat and cheese products. f.. Airborne virus particles can be carried in air currents for up to 40 miles.

Indeed, in my original post I said I wasn't sure what to think as there are good points on all sides, I was just putting the rambler's side as the poster I was replying to had glossed straight over all those points in the article.

As for humans being able to spread it, I never said they couldn't, just that the risk was regarded by those directly involved as insignificant. Still could happen though, hence the farmer's concern and desire to close all the RoW, but that would affect the rest of the industry in the countryside like it did last time, etc etc etc etc round and round.

Where's the proof ? Wildlife can only be controlled by culling, walkers can be forced to obey ( mind you theycould be culled as well :-)) )

No one knows how the transmission occured or what range is involved.

What it takes is sensitivity on all sides but unfortunately many could'nt care less and do as they please therefore forfeiting the right to access.

Yes, but would this be reality or politics ?

Farmers are panicky and have

Totally agree with you but I thought we were refering to the immediate area of the farms concerned ?

PS what's the Bydo empire Ian ?

What was needed was prompt action which was not forthcoming despite lessons supposedly learned. Frightening the human contagion element though don't you think?. I should add my pal has an additional problem that he does have a lot of Deer crossing his land in my time running the adjacent shoot we saw just how many there are in that bit of Derbyshire and you really cannot credit it most locals never see them at all. Derek

Of course the farmers are concerned, some jolly rambler/dog walker could have been on the infected land a week ago, gone on a break to another part of the country this week, gone for another walk with contaminated footwear. Same as a green laner with contaminated tyres. Close it ALL down now, and in a couple o weeks we could have stopped the spread. Dont and it could be nationwide VERY soon, then all closed for much longer, it is the holiday period and many folk travelling all over the UK Only my opinion, open to other views. Stuart

Vaccinate.

Steve

ISTR that the main thing they did this time which they didn't do last time was to quickly stamp on the genuine disease vector; transportation of animals. It continued for 3 days after infections were detected last time, they stamped on it straight away this time.

They are trying not to repeat the mistakes of last time, and that includes the mass closing of anything to do with the countryside, this time only things that make a difference, which includes RoW but only on infected farms, last time despite only a fraction of the farms in Britain being infected, almost every lane and country park etc were closed. Didn't help!

Well, those with the facts at their fingertips and the knowledge of the disease say otherwise.. The disease vector isn't bloody ramblers FFS!

I imagine that the financial impact of closing the whole of the countryside down (in the summer holidays too) is worse than that of letting all the farmers loose their stock? Cant be much in it anyway?

--

For which you have to make the vaccine, which requires some live virus as a culture, some of which could .... errrr ..... ummmm ..... escape into the environment.

Moo. ;-)

Another Steve

It also loses our status as a "foot & mouth free" country, which affects our meat export trade.

This was a reason given as to why we didn't last time.

Tciao for Now!

John.

That's the plan this time if the local cull doesn't work, vaccination drives down the reproduction of the disease once it's become widespread.

Yes for a while but last time failing to realise the disease was out of control AND having contiguous culls probably increased the life of the epidemic because there weren't resources to cull and deal with the bodies.

EU regulations have changed a bit since, so vaccinated animals would not have to be culled but there is every chance they would not be commercially acceptable in the food chain. The main advantage in vaccination is to prevent an epidemic once the disease is widespread, the primary aim will be to contain the disease. The most likely transmission mechanism is still mud and shitty debris carried around by various means.

AJH

I'll not argue against that. F&M is about as serious in cattle, once they've recovered from/ survived the initial infection, as chickenpox is in people, from what I've read. It allegedly results in a slight to moderate loss in rate of growth in livestock, making it a commercially sensitive disease. It's just a lot more contagious than chickenpox.

As I understand it, the loss of status is permanent. It's a bit like being a virgin, if I can use that analogy here. Last time, the decision to vaccinate would probably have done exactly as you said, but after vaccination is done, there's no easy way to prove that the antibody reaction in the livestock is against the vaccine, not a real infection, so other countries (Or, rather, the meat importers in other countries) no longer accept our meat as F&M free, no matter what the rules say. Not only that, but how do you decide when to stop vaccination?

Am I allowed to rant a little bit about Ramblers here?;-) As for commercially acceptable, would my memory of Irish meat exports using ferry routes that avoided England, Scotland & Wales during the last outbreak be right?

You make a couple of very good points that I agree with totally.

Tciao for Now!

John.

Didn't know there was a lot of tourism in Surrey.

Walkers may not have been a significant factor last time, but the circumstances are different this time as the source of the infection has been identified almost immediately. It is therefore potentially possible to contain the disease before it is spread. Closing a few footpaths is a small price to pay compared to the risk, no matter how small of the disease being carried outside the immediate area.

Well that's what was reckoned last time IIRC.

That is what they've done, closed the RoW through the infected farms.

Also "no matter how small" isn't a good way to risk assess, it's like those people who say that "no price is too high to save a human life" without thinking through what that means, sounds fine but in the real world it doesn't pan out. That was found out the last time and it hurt. The "Countryside is closed" message was very damaging.

Same thing happened after the Boscastle floods, people got the impression Cornwall was shut, indeed I was told by someone who had booked a friends holiday cottage near Tintagel that the police had closed Cornwall off and they couldn't therefore go. Total rubbish of course, only Boscastle, a very small area in N.Cornwall, was affected. Lots of people cancelled bookings though.