+ and - of automatic gearbox - is manual better?

I think most also have "decent sensing" so they know when they are going down a hill. I remember on an auto Corsa I hired I was going down quite a steep hill at approx 20mph and I lifted my foot off the brake and I could feel the gearbox trying to keep the speed at a constant level, it did creep up but only very slowly.

I once had a Nissan micra CVT, nice car to drive once you get used to the absence of distinct gear changes. The only problem I found was a lag between pressing the accelerator and the car actually moving, more of a problem at junctions. You get used to it eventually and adjust your driving accordingly.

Rob

How can you say there is no lack of control? Surely the one thing they do is choose when to change gear? I hate that about them, can ruin the weight balance at the most inopportune moment.

Mine has 5 gears - 31mph/1000 in top...

Manual is better. No question in my mind. I have quite a long list of problems with autos, roughly in the order of importance to me -

It changes gear when it wants to. This can ruin the weight balance when cornering, and cause you to die. A bit of a disadvantage in my view.

You cannot use an engine like it is supposed to be used. AIUI, an engine is most efficient when running at full throttle between 3000 and

When you want to pull out into a small gap, in a manual you can rev the engine and slip the clutch, so up to 20 or something you have as much power as the wheels can handle. In an auto, you have to wait for the speed to get up some before you approach the rev range where you get any power. I found this a bit dangerous when I was not used to it, and awkward after (I needed some 3x the space to pull out into slow traffic).

If you want to use the "forced" gears, you have to select the correct position along a line, rather than all the way up or down (as in a manual). I found this too difficult to be sure of getting right, which you have to do in most of the situations where you need the option.

When traveling at close to a constant speed, either to compensate for the change in slope or to hold that speed I would slightly change the throttle position. At certain speeds, this would cause it to keep changing gear. Not really a problem, but did not make for a smooth ride.

In the car I have experience in, at some speeds / slopes I could not get the car to change down gears. For example, on the flat if I was going over 92 it would not change into 4th (second to top anyway) however much throttle I used, and it would not accelerate over about 98 in 5th. To accelerate, I had to slow down to 92 and use full throttle. It would then change down and would accelerate up to about 107. In short, to get it over 98 you had to slow down to 92 first! I know this is above the speed limit, but it was on a road with visibility possibly over 10 miles (US 50 I think, loneliest road in the states). A similar thing happened going up some hills at much lower speeds.

Ice and snow, I am not sure any of these would be particular relevant for that. The auto I was driving in the snow also had ABS, which took all my swearing (was quite awful, no braking power at all). If you are good enough to drive fast in the snow, I am sure the weight balance thing could be a problem, but I am not.

The only advantage I can see is to save your left leg all the gear changes. I have never found this a problem. I think a similar thing about torque, why should I care, if I want power I will just change down?

Oh yes, I just remembered another problem. There is a significant lag between putting your foot down and getting the pwoer. For example, you want to overtake. You see the gap from some way before. In a manual, you change down before, and you have the power as soon as you want it. In an auto you wait until the gap is available, put your foot down, wait for the car to decide it want to change gear, then wait for it to change gear, then you get the power. I do not know how long it was, but it felt like an eternity when ther is something coming towards you.

I am sure you could preempt this is you were good, put your foot down perhaps 1 second before the gap is available. A bit tricky though, when you had a car in front of you. And if you got it wrong, put your foot down too early, then you take your foot of the throtle, it has to change up again, then you are ready for the power, it changes down again, what a lot of mesing about.

...

If you're using full throttle, surely you want to be accelerating as fast as possible - in which case you want the higher revs.

Sounds like you were driving a s*it auto. The ones I've driven didn't suffer this - and they were't anything special (volvo 240, 850). In fact they were rather better at this than a manual.

cheers, clive

( snipped-for-privacy@myself.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Indeed. If you aren't prepared to learn to use the controls properly, then it can be a bit of a faff.

Have you considered using the gear selector?

You wait for the gap - right, after this next car - drag the selector back from D to (4/3/2/whatever), and you're in the right gear without needing to use kickdown. Then, when you're past and easing back, knock it forward to D again.

( snipped-for-privacy@myself.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Why on earth would you want to?

How long do your clutches last?

Doesn't sound like the autobox is the dangerous part of that combination... If you're having to absolutely welly it into a gap, then the gap's far too small to go for safely.

Mine has definite "notches", and is very easy to get in the right position. You also need to use the release button to go down from 3 to 2, or "up" from D to N.

Did you think of using the selector?

Assuming you're referring to being on the public road, then ITYM "stupid enough".

The entire post sounds like every merkin auto I've ever driven. None have been top-end vehicles but the last was a 2003 model so you'd think it would be close to current technology. Makes me wonder if the US lags as far behind the rest of the world with transmissions as with as ride/handling?

Chandy

Yup,. I've found this, though I'm told modern decent autos by the likes of Volvo and Merc are much much better in this respect, and don't go for flat-out acceleration unless you *really* ask them to!

Erm, most decent autos creep. My brother's Alfa 147 Selespeed doesn't, and is s**te, especially when parking in tight spaces.

What car was this, out of interest? I know a lot of autos lock the torque converter above a certain speed in top gear, but obviously in that car it wasn't powerful enough to be able to justify doing that quite so early. Maybe it was a bit broken.

Ice/snow modes in autos are supposed to be excellent. And re: ABS - you're missing the point, but yes, it does increase braking distance.

The left leg thing - if you do a *lot* of town driving and the car has a heavy clutch then you'll appreciate an auto, otherwise, it's good excercise.

As I siad in my first post, I found it hard to be certain of hitting the right point of the gear selector. It is so much harder to get the right point on a straight line than on a manual gear box, espesialy when I have other things to think about when overtaking. Also you do not have all gears to choose from (I think I had 1, 2 and OD off).

Not always. The most fuel efficent way to go from 0 to 60 (or whatever) if to keep the engine at 3 - 4k rpm at full throtle. You cannot do this in an auto (or not in the one I was in).

Really? How does the car detect the point of grip? Or does full throtle spin the wheels?

Because it is the most fuel efficent way to accelerate?

Never had one go.

However big you want you saftey zone, the gap needs to be bigger with an auto. You could say the same about size of engine, if you need to accelerate hard, you are doing something wrong.

Fair enough. Not all do though. Still, is it harder than a manual?

I did not in this particular example. Sometimes you could not because you could not select the gear you wanted.

No, I meant good enough to do it safely.

( snipped-for-privacy@myself.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

As I said, not IMHO.

From D, one slight tug back to 3. Hold the button in and another slight tug to 2. A slight nudge forwards takes you to the definite notch for the position higher.

Mine does. (But mine's "only" a 4-spd", tis true.) Gawd knows about the Merc 7-speeders, but I doubt it's such an issue...

Sounds like "OD off" is 3, assuming it was a 4-spd.

( snipped-for-privacy@myself.com) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

It isn't.

Can the people who buy your cars off you say the same? If you're clutch-slipping it to 20mph on full throttle, that is going to kill the clutch in far shorter order than otherwise.

Indeed.

Every one I've ever driven has.

Easier.

Exactly. You *never* have a large enough safety margin on snow on the road to start sliding it near enough the limits, because you never know what somebody else is going to do.

No - but you can probably do almost as well, ie no discernable difference, by not going at full throttle and letting the auto use the higher gear. The modern ones are a bit better at this afaik.

Since your complaint was that there wasn't enough power going to the wheels, why you mention this?

In this case, the driver detects the point of grip, not the car. If the wheels start spinning, lift the right foot up a bit until they grip again. Exactly the same as driving a manual. (Or in the case of the 240, it isn't going to spin the wheels anyway.)

(I say in this case, because I know TC exists)

It's a bit odd that you mention one of the things that autos are really good at as being a problem...

clive

Quite possible. I was in an MGF with a CVT box, and you could set that to either accelerate at the highest power or the most fuel efficent. A nice point, but still, buying a "sports" car with an auto?????

Creep? just in case you did not understand me, I mean accelerating at the maximum rate posible at low speeds.

It was a 2.5 V6 ford contour, 96 I think. Quite possibly a bit broken, but it is still going now, some 2 years later.

So what is the point, except to help people that cannot drive properly? Is there a better way to brake in the snow than either appling full force, or just enough force to stop the ABS engaging (both seemed pretty similar)?

I have in the past worked driving all day, often in town all day. If you think that is bad, try doing loading with a tractor all day. Gear changes every few seconds, and the weight of the clutch is some 5 - 10 times that of a car.

Depends very much on the car. If your brakes are only effective on the front wheels - which mine are - engine braking is much less likely to break traction.