+ and - of automatic gearbox - is manual better?

The message from "Tim S Kemp" contains these words:

This is why BAA use automatic trucks on their airport sites. They reckon it's cheaper on servicing and fuel 'cos they don't get thrashed like manuals. That and of course they're not paying duty on the fuel!

If you're on sheet ice, going too fast, the power of prayer might be as good as anything. Yes, rapid cadence braking is your best chance of steering - but only if there are pockets of grip. Getting some wheels on to something which *isn't* ice - like a grass verge, for instance - is more likely to be productive than any kind of finesse you can display on the controls.

An afternoon in a garage maintaining a car is my idea of hell, rather than being enjoyable! Each to their own.

Ins't 6 grand a lot of money these days? That would be a season on the slopes for me, with change for a lot of car left over.

But you could not select out gears? Did that have any of the issues I mentioned?

I tend to find that in the price range I tend to look in, under 200 quid, you can get a lot more car if you are willing to drive and auto. Still would not do it though.

I am glad we agree on the main point anyway. What I actualy meant was what do you think is the real world ecconomic strategy for getting from

A good point. I recall a taxi Co some years ago, that replaced it's fleet with autos. The added cost was more than compensated for, by very significant savings on maintenance. Mainly by not having to fit new clutches every few thousand miles. Mike.

Agreed - you don't need to spend lots on an Auto. Most modern boxes coupled to the ECU are good. Last car was a Megane Auto, which had a rather notchy auto box which was nevertheless quite OK to drive. (It's hydraulics stopped working and had to be fixed at great expense, but that's Renault Autoboxes for you; when it worked it worked well) Current car is a Nissan Almera - excellent box, very smooth and responsive, and quite happy to instantly change down two ratios when you hit the loud pedal if you are doing less than about 60. Judging all automatics by one bad US example is like me saying all Diesels are rubbish because the last two diesel hire cars I drove in France were awful (a brand new Peugot 307 that had great difficulty going into gear and sounded like a tractor and a Polo which was incredibly unresponsive. But I also know that there *are* good diesels out there; I've just never driven one).

Zimmy ( snipped-for-privacy@y.z) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying :

Now you're just being DAF...

Dunno.

If I do foot to the floor between 3 and 4k rpm in my car it'll do it quite quickly, but it looks a bit like a squid when you do it. So that's not necessarily a good option for me.

TBH I haven't really tried. I spend a sufficiently small proportion of my time getting to 60 that I suspect any differences will be unmeasurable. I also tend not to be in a screaming hurry, so there's no particular impetus to get to 60 as fast as possible - and I'll only catch the car in front up sooner if I go faster.

cheers, clive

But that's why most people give Renault autoboxes a wide berth - the time they're not working is quite large!

Does the Almera have Renault mechanicals? I know Nissan and Renault share a fair bit these days (like the diesel engines) - Nissan don't use Renault autoboxes do they?

Did you mainly use the 307 from cold? If so, it would sound like a tractor. And was the Polo just a 1.9D or a TDI? If you ask too much of any turbocharged anything at too low revs then it won't respond that well. But yes, there are better and not so good diesels out there.

I doubt it. Nissan score well in all reliability surveys.

Does the Almera have Renault mechanicals? I know Nissan and Renault share a fair bit these days (like the diesel engines) - Nissan don't use Renault autoboxes do they?

------------------------ The newer Diesel Almeras use Renault engines. Other than that, I don't think so. The Almera has a Borg-Warner autobox in it (I think). Quite different from the Renault one, because the latter is sealed and has neither dipstick nor place to top it up, whereas the Nissan has both. I heard from the gearbox guy who fixed our Renault that Renault have switched to using Nissan's auto boxes in their newer cars, so maybe the problems with Renault automatics are a thing of the past

Did you mainly use the 307 from cold? If so, it would sound like a tractor. And was the Polo just a 1.9D or a TDI? If you ask too much of any turbocharged anything at too low revs then it won't respond that well. But yes, there are better and not so good diesels out there.

------------------------------- No - I drove it some distance, and this was in Nice, so it wasn't ever really cold. The thing that shocked me was how terrible the gear change was (and before someone says I don't know how to use a clutch, I should point out the autos are driven mainly by my other half, my day to day car is manual); the clutch felt like it wasn't disengaging fully, and this on a car which had about 6km on the clock when I picked it up. It's manic enough driving in that area without having a car that keeps getting stuck in neutral. I also didn't like the daft double-opening rear door/window thingy, or the control layout. Don't know what the Polo was offhand, but I doubt it had a turbo; didn't feel like it, anyway. Actually, come to think of it I've driven a big Volvo estate which was a Diesel, and that was OK, and BMW diesels I've been in also sound OK.

I don't consider it a lot for a car as I tend to run cars for 100k to 150k miles. - works out at 4-6p/mile, a small amount of the total running costs of a car. If I did low miles it would be harder to justify. I've spent much more than that on cars in the past.

Select out? what do you mean?

It worked well, until the engine started having problems and wouldn't idle.

You're missing out.

Sorry, I do not know what happened to my fingers there. I meant select ALL gears, ie. choose which gear to be in.

All this talk here is making me think the same. The last auto I was tempted by was a mercedes 500 SEL, 1983 I think. Went for 2000 quid at the auction. I could live with all the problems except for the issue with it throwing the weight balance out as I am changing gear. Given that the primary reason for getting it would be to power slide any chance I get, do you think I should give a car like that a try, or do I need to spend big money to get a decent auto box that will not change gear when going round a corner?

Sorry, I do not know what happened to my fingers there. I meant select ALL gears, ie. choose which gear to be in.

All this talk here is making me think the same. The last auto I was tempted by was a mercedes 500 SEL, 1983 I think. Went for 200 quid at the auction. I could live with all the problems except for the issue with it throwing the weight balance out as I am changing gear. Given that the primary reason for getting it would be to power slide any chance I get, do you think I should give a car like that a try, or do I need to spend big money to get a decent auto box that will not change gear when going round a corner?

No, only 2 or 1.

Better off with a V6 auto omega or scorpio if you want to experience big car sideway action - I never had any problems with the gearbox knackering up my drift technique on the omega.

Don't under any circumstances buy an automatic Neon.

In message , Tim S Kemp writes

Sure you don't mean "Don't under any circumstances buy any Neon."?

I had one of those. :)

Need to be a good one at that price.

The 'box is dumb, but co-operative - it's a 4-speed with PRND32 which starts in second except if kicked down so sticking it in "2" will effectively lock it in second unless you deliberately click the kickdown. Second is good for ~70mph IIRC...

The Merc wiggly gate is nice for manual intervention too.

It needs a *very* wide road to get a SEL sideways...

They are more nimble than most counties of similar size but they ain't go-karts.

You'd be better looking at SEs, SECs or SLs which though they're not really sports cars either - still fun to be had though and SECs still look stunning. 190E 2.6s are much more hooligan friendly...

Plenty of them in budget car territory, we had one on the fleet for a year - crap build quality, dull to drive and a 3 speed auto box.