How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol

Ultimately every space on M-way services car park should have a rapid charger but only a certain number could be used at one time. The car plugs in and driver validates payment, they will have to switch on/off automatically by FIFO queue and as the charging system knows how many cars are in the queue can give you the time you have wait. Unlike a petrol station no one has to be in attendance. Spot the filling stations. One day instead of 2/4 there will be 20

40/50Kw chargers - 0.8 to 1MW.
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6MW each ??? That was based on the notion that 100% of the energy in fossil fuel propels the car. It was also the demand for 6 min charge time. I have already destroyed that fake claim.

But just for you I'll do it again in a different way.

6MW is 6000KW, 6 minutes of that will be 600KWh. That is 20 times the capacity of a 30KWh Nissan Leaf, 10 times the capacity of a 60KW/h Chevy Bolt / Tesla 3 and 6.6 times the capacity of a 90KW/h Tesla S P90. They go 100/200/300 miles on a full charge. For you to demand a supply of 6MW for 6 min means you must have somehow obtained a vehicle that has a battery pack with a range of 2000 miles! Or you have being spouting FAKE NEWS and listening to idiots.

A 60KWh battery pack (Bolt/Tesla 3) is good for over 200 miles, about

2/3 the range of a SI car and 1/2 the range of a big smoker. Instead of filling once every 1 or 2 weeks you will normally fill it daily at home. 60KWh battery can only be charged to 80% on rapid charge and will be starting from about 20%, so only 36KWh to go in on a rapid charge. That is 360KW for 6 min charge time. A whole lot less (just 6%) than the claimed 6MW required for a 6 min charge time but still the load of 120 domestic sockets. With 30 min charge time the demand is 72Kw and at 40min 54Kw, much more achievable.

As a 36Kw fill is good for nearly 2 hours driving an extra 30 min charging up is not a huge cost in time. And you won't be standing out in the rain/snow or dancing on a slick of split diesel while it charges up.

How much does that 30 min fill time cost you? Well it actually PAYS you. EV cost per mile is 1/2 of fossil fuel so while 150 miles costs about £18 in fuel it costs £9 in electricity (for public charge points, much less on home charge). The savings you make are effectively EARNING £18/hour while you charge up. If you ever got your demand for 6 min charge time you won't be "earning" £180/hour during that 6 min charge. You would have pay a lot more to have that charge rate and your "earnings" would have to become a payment.

Rapid chargers are 43Kw or 50Kw with Tesla supercharge running 120Kw. These charge an EV to 80% in 20-40 min. Tesla S&X take just as long as the battery pack is 2x the size. Won't be at supermarkets unless they are very close to M-way junctions or major routes. Tesla can have as many 10 superchargers on site (1.2MW), while most EV chargers only have

4 at present (0.2MW).

Fast chargers are 7.7Kw single phase or 22Kw three phase (32Amp like your cooker supply, not a poxy domestic socket). 7.7kW charger will recharge in 3-5 hours, 22kW charger in 1-2 hours. These you will find at destinations, hotels, works and yes supermarkets. If there were 50 22Kw chargers on a supermarket car park the load would be 1.1MW. But who does

400 mile round trip to a supermarket?

Charging points are on the rise and rising fast.

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There are over 20 rapid 7.7Kw charging points on the car parks of the firm I work at around Derby. They can be booked for 4 hours at a time. I'm not sure how many there are at other sites like Bristol. There's a guy does Bristol to Derby and back at least once a week in a 30KWh Leaf. He doesn't like paying for the Polarcharge card so has been getting a

*free* (slow) charge from the on-site car hire firm throwing a cable out the window of the portacabin. Complains that the company won't give him an EV, so he leaves the company car at home and uses his EV.

The big question is whether they should fit a lot of slow 3Kw chargers for 8 hour charge time while at work (7.6 hour working day + 30 min lunch). Then people could commute 60 miles each way in 30KWh EVs. Or 10 miles in PHEV with 5KWh batteries without using a 4 hour rapid charger space.

Reply to
Peter Hill
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The install can deliver to 30 cars per day. But it's scalable and is really at beta test stage.

Reply to
Steve H

If the production of hydrogen requires electricity, where is that electricity going to come from?

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

Martin Brown wrote in news:oqlmpk$17ao$1 @gioia.aioe.org:

I guess the control system would try to start the engine.

Reply to
DerbyBorn

A normal filling station at present serves 30 cars in thirty minutes, so it would have to ramp up a real lot. Would specialised staff be required to keep the filling process safe? Good site for a terrorist attack too. I would hazard a guess that hydrogen stations would not be permitted anywhere near housing. I have only seen one and that was well in the countryside.

Reply to
MrCheerful

400% efficient would be handy
Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Dont even go there. Hydrogen is enormously bulky and bloody dangerous. Colorless, odorless, leaks out of any pipe that isn't perfect - teh explosin at fukushinma was from far less than a car tank of hydrogen..

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

In message , at 17:05:11 on Fri, 29 Sep

2017, Graham J remarked:

Is that each way, or round-trip?

But how many 5.95 mile trips does a (non-commuter) driver typically do per day?

I don't drive anywhere the majority of days, but when I do it's likely to be at least three or four ~5mile trips out-and-back, or if not that by a strange quirk of retail store and NHS hospital location planning, a minimum of 15miles out and 15 miles back.

Reply to
Roland Perry

In message , at

17:23:48 on Fri, 29 Sep 2017, NY remarked:

And a magic kilowatt tree growing at the local substation.

Reply to
Roland Perry

122 litres of cryogenically frozen liquid hydrogen

But that is of course bollocks. You need way more hydrogen than 8kg.

8kg of hydrogen is about 1000 MJ.

That's about 29 litres of diesel. Something like 8 gallons

If you think you can do 500 miles on 29 litres of diesel good luck with that.

And they don't work. The efficiency if you try and pull any kind of power out is abysmal.

Worse than an IC vehicle.

That's whey we don't use fuel cells anywhere.

The 'hydrogen economy' bullshit has been arounjd for years., Seems someone still believes in it, but every major company that looked into it has quietly dropped it.

That is the same for *all* green technology.

NONE of it works efficiently. The only things that do work badly and inefficiently are windmills, solar panels and battery cars

But I wouldn't want to build a civilisation on them.

The problem is that youngsters today don't realise that people calculated all this stuff years ago with slide rules, and shelved all the solutions that simply didn't work well enough to pour private money into. Steam powered aeroplanes. Windmills. Solar panels. Electric cars.

They only survive because people have bent the ears of government. And we pay in extra taxes to prove how whit these technologies are.

We don't need subsidised hydrogen powered fuel cell cars either. Huge tanks, limited power and very very dangerous.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

'Hydrogen economy' was always bullshit.

Its not a primary energy soure, its a stupid bulky and dangerous means of storing energy.

And used in an IC its no better than diesel at NOX emissions

You would be better off making synthetic diesel. #

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

We've had LPG for years and CNG is gaining momentum. You can put tanks underground (as we do with LPG and CNG).

Filling is no more difficult than filling an LPG vehicle - the connector and filling process is near identical. So it can be operated by any member of the public without specialist attendants.

Hydrogen is just acting as a battery in these applications - as an energy store it's more efficient than storing in a lithium battery.

Reply to
Steve H

Nobody has to be in attendance at a petrol / diesel station.

It costs you about £9 in fuel + £9 in tax.

Reply to
Nick Finnigan

Unlike, say, methane or LPG ?

Reply to
Nick Finnigan

Does most of the nitrogen in diesel NOx emissions come from the nitrogen in the atmosphere? I'd always thought it came from the diesel fuel. Evidently not.

Why is it that diesel engines and fuel cells have more of a problem with NOx than petrol engines? Is it because diesel engines are very lean burn (they use far more oxygen than is required to burn the fuel), whereas petrol is stoichiometric (ie perfect petrol:air ratio)?

Reply to
NY

Suggest you look at the official figures for the Honda Clarity and Toyota equivalent.

The big stumbling block for Hydrogen is the power to crack it from water. But when you look at the requirements to charge 30 Teslas to do

500 miles, it doesn't look so bad!

There's probably a balance here - plug-in fuel-cell / battery hybrids would work in 99% of situations.

Reply to
Steve H

Fuel cells don't emit NOx. It's only when you burn Hydrogen in a traditional IC engine you get NOx.

Reply to
Steve H

Apologies: in the second paragraph I meant to say "diesel engines and hydrogen IC engines". I misunderstood what the the OP was, then re-read it and corrected myself in one place but not in the other...

Reply to
NY
[...]

When was the law changed regarding that then?

It was always a legal requirement that an attendant had to be present, and have full view of filling operations, at all times.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

There are plenty of filling stations (eg the one at the Asda near me) which are open 24/7 as long as you use pay-at-pump, but are only staffed during daylight hours. Maybe they are monitored remotely by CCTV when the payment booths are unstaffed.

Reply to
NY

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