Mk2 Escort strut / mod questions ...

I'm failing to think of any advantage to not fitting one, Ford only left it out to save money.

Hi Duncan and thanks for your reply ... assuming we are talking about a top bearing here, the only thing I can think of (that may play a part) is any steering self_centring that may be created by the springs? If there are models with the exact same suspension / steering setup (trail / castor / whatever) that do have bearings as std then (ignoring the cost issue), what impact it might have either way removing / adding a bearing?

If a bearing is recommended in any case, is there a good vehicle to use as a guide / donor for such please, if such a solution would work?

I'm assuming anything that is added to the existing setup is going to cause the damper rod to sit slightly lower down (by the thickness of any bearing), or would I replace the entire top mount for one that includes the bearing (that seem quite expensive).

I just found this (that gives a little history and a price)[1]: ;-)

I suppose for a (very) short test I could just slacken the top damper rod nuts, spray in some grease (allowing the top spring cup to rotate under the bush better) and see just how much difference it makes?

I'm also awaiting for some replies from suppliers re locating a pair of std disk_brake struts that have concentric lower spring cups as I think that is all I really need to resolve the wheel fitment issue.

Cheers, T i m

[1] I believe those standard top mounts come in two hole (mounting) sizes (one of the few things you had to stipulate when ordering the kitcar from the factory) and knowing my luck ... ;-(

steering self centering is caused by the steering geometry and forward motion (which is why it does not work when reversing), spring wind up could adversely affect it, hence the caveat about centering and tightening. Changing to roller top mounts would not stop the steering centering itself.

No - the centring comes from the castor angle in the wheel geometry. In addition, if both springs are wound in the same direction, any centring effect they may (fairly unpredictably) give would cancel each other out.

Burtons do a nice pair of coil over front legs for 500 quid.

It makes it slightly better, you could try Peter Lloyd Rallying for them or Burtons still make them. I'd have thought you'll get away with the solid spherica ones in a kit car.

Understood.

Never considered that. ;-)

Yes, quite, but why doesn't it affect it then when it does affect the natural ability for the steering to self-centre, re the caveat. Either it does or does not affect it?

No, quite, but I was more interested to know why roller mounts weren't there as std (one reason offered by Duncan being 'cost') and what impact they might have on a system designed to be without, given the fact that they *do* have an impact on self centring.

ie, I don't (didn't) want to go to all the trouble and cost of 'upgrading' my front suspension to improve one thing (wheel choice) and then ruin something else. ;-(

OOI, I have since found references to the very thing I feared could happen mentioned here (and a novel solution to it). ;-)

Specifically:

"With coil overs with spherical bearing top mounts, when you turn the steering, the spring rotates with the strut, but binds up on it?s top seat as the top seat is bolted to the top mount. If you hit a bump mid drift you would often feel a twang as the spring re-seats. The problem was that when it re-seats, it is then trying to bind up when you steer the steering back straight again. This made the dead ahead sometimes a little vague and quite inconsistent."

The exact same thing happens on the std design but that design caters for it by positively locating the springs in the cups (forcing the springs to wind up on steering but not move in their seats etc).

Maybe the other people who have modded their Escorts and Capris (kitcars) to coil-overs but not fitted a roller top mount don't have, notice or care about such things? [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] I could overcome some of my problems by fitting wheel spacers but that isn't really what I want to do either. The original Ford Escort wheels have a 19mm offset. The (slightly wider) wheels I want to fit also have a 19mm offset, but because they are also wider (and in this case with bigger wheels with full profile tyres, taller), foul the 'offset' lower spring cups I just happen to have ended up with on my kitcar, because that was what was fitted to the donor Escort I used. I guess all those who built their kitcars from donors that 'just happened' to have the concentric springs and cups, can't understand what the issue is when they fit the exact same wheels. ;-( 25 years ago (when I built the kitcar) I could have gone to any breakers and had a selection of struts to choose from, had I know what I might have to face in the future (re fitting different wheels). ;-)

Yes ... 'typically it only comes from that'.

Quite, that is exactly how it works, but affect the centring they certainly do (as I found out after tightening the damper rod nuts up without the steering being straight and wondered WHF was going on!). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Erm, yes, and some are even more ... and I guess as long as they come complete with top bearing mounts they could be considered a positive answer to my question. ;-)

All_I_want is a clean *pair* (you can even find new_old_stock singles on eBay for 50 quid), either with concentric springs (that I can just bolt on and use as-is) or another pair the same as I have on now that I can be converting in the background (leaving the originals as-is, in case I choose to go back to stock at any time).

As I said, I do have some feelers out in that direction and I have been offered 'a' pair of struts at a reasonable price that are supposed to be suitable but I just need to confirm the details (tomorrow hopefully) etc.

I just wanted to clarify this 'locked' top mount question to see if I had missed something and it appears I haven't.

Cheers, T i m

Ok thanks.

I know the ones you mean but I'm not sure I've seen them included in the std rubber mounts but more typically in the solid alloy type?

The reason that would be an issue for me is I am looking for a soft and compliant ride, like it was when I first built the car from a 88k mile 1978 Mk2 1300 saloon. This is a 'jeep' style, rather than a Lotus

7 clone and I do actually take it up tracks and trails on occasion and it handle them very well, or at least it did ...

When I broke the Sierra I retain the 2L Pinto and 5 speed box with the intention of 'upgrading' the 1300 Kent in the kitar at sometime. I found a Cortina sump (that would clear the Escort X member), fitted a Cortina rad, replaced the front springs and shocks, upgraded all the rubber bushes to 'Poly' and got new throttle and clutch cables ready.

Then the taxation rules and other circumstances changed and I decided not to bother.

So, I was then bouncing about with h/d springs so changed them back to some std+1" I had made and whilst that helped, I think the h/d dampers (inserts) and the Polybushes were still making the ride very 'stiff'.

One of my tests for compliance (for it's modest limits) is to slowly drive one front wheel up onto a biggish kerb, stop, and see if I can open the drivers door without it catching. If it catches, that tells me the suspension is too stiff and isn't doing enough of the work, making the ladder chassis / bodywork flex instead. It is ok now with the std springs back in, but now I want (need) to change to tyres and I have two sets of Weller wheels that are supposed to fit that would help me do that, because they don't fit. The fit the hub, the PCD, and in the arches and they fit on the rear. They don't fit on the front, because the tyre fouls the (offset) lower spring cup so *everything* is dependant of getting that sorted somehow.

It is my intention, once I know I can use them, to get a set of cheap

185/80/14's on a set of Wellers and I can then put them on and use them. Then I can have the existing 8 spoke steels (not Wellers and with a smaller offset) refurbished and keep looking for some affordable 185/80/14's M+S to put on. I want the M+S pattern, partly because I think it looks right on an 'off road styled vehicle but one of the few things the kitcar does well (compared with any std road going 2WD car etc) is go though a bit of mud and snow. ;-)

If I can't get some form of M+S tyre (maybe even going to a 195/70/14 etc) I can see it just not getting used and doing 1 mile between MOTs again. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Spring wind up can increase the self centering ability, but it is not the cause of it. Adverse spring wind up (not centred when tightened) will affect the designed self centring in a bad way, but probably not enough to negate it completely.

There is a pair of used coilovers on ebay today: 261766525363

You do realise that the rolling road tax exemption has restarted? So anything that is registered 40 years old is now exempt, not just the pre

72 stuff. So you could stick any size lump in and not worry about the tax cost.

It's not the main / typical cause of it no. However, disconnect the track-rod-end and watch the wheel centre (quite meaningfully) all on it's own (with the wheel in the air of course). ;-)

Hmm, you may well be right but I think I took charge before I found out (possibly the hard way)! ;-(

Cheers, T i m

Thanks for that MrC. ;-)

The stub axle / bearing surfaces look a bit better than a cheaper pair I was watching but what is it with the threaded tubes welded on at different heights?

As an aside, are the main part of the lower assemblies cast iron or cast / forged steel? I ask because you often see those little triangular gussets welded on and whilst I know it's easy to weld to the steel of the leg itself, I'm not sure welding cast iron is a good thing (if it was). Personally ... I think I'd prefer some un-welded that way (and I don't mean the gussets ground off, unless someone could set my mind at ease etc). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

I do indeed. ;-)

Yup, but my Mk2 Escort was a 78 so I make that still 3 years to go?

Yup, and I am holding onto the Pinto for that very reason. It still might be more expensive to insure but that might be less of an issue than the tax. I think we currently pay £140 Comp for the 1300 and the two of us. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Sort of, but not what happens in the real world I don't believe.

Ok, say you set the steering straight then applied 10% of 'toe in' to the springs (by slackening the top nut, applying a 10 deg rotation towards the centre and re tightening the nuts) then yes, the springs would be counteracting each other and the net outcome would still be that they would create a self centring effect.

However, IRL and with the springs set neutral to the centre, when you steer you are applying a torsional movement to both springs (be it winding up one and unwinding the other, it matters not) but both springs will be attempting to return to their original positions (the centre) and will therefore, take their wheels with them. ;-)

I'll give you that the whole thing wouldn't be very accurate but it is pretty predictable (as would be easily demonstrated by setting one or both 'off centre' and seen just how predictably it pulls the car in that direction).

I'm guessing that if didn't matter what ended up where the springs would have circular ends, the cups wouldn't have spring recesses in them to hold the springs in one position, there wouldn't be a 'D' shape in the top spring cup, the end of the damper rod wouldn't have flats on it and the who lot wouldn't be torqued down to 30 ft/lb and the (special) nut peened over?

No, it obviously matters 'a lot' where all these components sit relative to each other and therefore how that affects any 'bias' (if you don't want to call it self centring) it gives to what direction the wheels end up facing when you are moving and take your hands off the steering wheel. ;-)

That's why I asked the question .... that if it was all *designed* to work like that, and you take it away (by fitting a revolving top mount), what might that do to the steering (and specifically steering bias) of the vehicle? An answer of 'very little' is acceptable (preferred even) but that isn't the same as suggesting this non-rotating top mount has no effect on the steering at all (not that you have etc).

Neither is it the same question as why most cars are designed with revolving top mounts these days (or even then). ;-)

When I replaced the stock 13" wheels with 14" wheels and 80 profile tyres I knew pretty accurately what that was going to do to the effective gearing of the vehicle. I also knew what alternative gearing (diff) ratios were available and which one I would need to put the mph/rpm back near what it was from the factory. So, I removed a 3.89:1 diff and replaced it with a 4.44:1 diff and that also allowed for the heavier weight and worse aerodynamics. ;-)

And it was all working fine .... I just want to get it back that way and ideally without having to pay 'Escort tax' ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

It looks as though the threaded adjustment tubes are not a pair, so one is longer and therefore goes further down the leg. Probably just not an originally identical pair (which would make little difference as the innards have been replaced)

You can weld to cast iron with the right rods and techniques, I do not think it would make much odds to the overall strength of the stub axle, but it will help a lot with maintaining the geometry when used hard by resisting bending the upright where it leaves the stub axle.

And would have to be replaced again so I'd only be buying the basic tube and coilover stuff.

I believe the std 1300 saloon had 85 lb/in front springs and were about 13" long (free length). They do a 14" 2.25" coilover at 80 or

100 lb/in (at that length) so the 100 lb/in might be about right to compensate for the extra weight of the kitcar. Especially so because the height would be easily adjusted.

I can could either re-fit the original (wet) damper shafts or replace the current h/d inserts for 'std' once (available at my local car spares place for 60 quid / side). I can either keep all the h/d stuff till I can make use of the 40 yr classic exemption or sell it all and either stick with the 1300, use the 1300GT or 1600 Xflows I already have. ;-)

I wonder how many doing these leg mods are using the right stuff though?

Understood (and assuming the welds hold and haven't made anything weaker). ;-)

Since my last post here I've spoken to another Ranger owner and he also has the offset springs, 19mm offset Weller wheels and 185/80/14 tyres. The tyre 'just' misses the lower cup.

Tyre choices:

They should be 185/80/14's but there aren't many available in 4ply (non van) load rating and very very few in car spec in M+S pattern (diameter 652mm). They would work with the set of steel 10 spokes I have on there now.

I can get a greater range of 195/70/14's (91), some M+S in that size (629 mm dia. -23mm) but a bit more expensive and less likely to clear the strut.

I can get a very cheap (28 quid) chunky M+S pattern 185/70/14 (81) that may just be big enough (615,mm, -37mm) and more likely to clear the strut.

I think I'll see if I can get a selection of old tyres in those sizes from my local tyre place, mount them on my spare set of Wellers and offer them up. I already have a 205/?/14 on a Weller that I can try again (but pretty sure it fouled the strut).

Cheers, T i m