So what's going on here ... ?

But that's the thing isn't it ... there is often some dealbreaker app or piece of hardware that prevents people from running Linux only (which does seem to be the goal of a tiny minority, the rest often happy to run whatever works best for each task).

What, you don't apply the Linux updates? Can Linux run it's updates automatically yet, ideally and optionally (for many) as you shut down?

I know every time I turn on one of my (numerous) Linux machines I'm informed there are updates I should run (manually).

I would also be happy to solely use another / single OS, especially if it was free (of cost), compatible with everything I needed and did it all. Unfortunately I currently don't have that choice.

As I type, W10 is installing (itself, pretty well) on a laptop for a mate (was W7) and I've left some room to install Linux (probably Mint

18.2 Cinnamon). The chances are both will install equally well (assuming Mint will install with only 1G of RAM? (W10 has but won't apply the latest upgrade)) and then it's fingers crossed that Linux can properly see and use all the hardware and softkeys on it's own as I really don't want to waste any time playing 'hunt the solution from the chaos'. ;-)

Then it will be interesting to see which OS the user actually uses most often (given he doesn't have any issues using Windows that I know of).

Cheers, T i m

[1] Hardly any of the car OBD utilities, professional or d-i-y are available natively on Linux that I'm aware of and I see no point adding extra layers by trying to get any to run under WINE or a Windows VM.

[...]

To run an update automatically without user intervention is very unlikely to happen on any Linux distribution. It goes completely against the very things that make Linux secure.

Very, very few Linux updates have any sort of security implication, so you don't need to sweat about installing them ASAP.

One of the few Linux converts I've made didn't update her machine for two years. She used the machine daily, for mostly on-line things. When I visited her, she asked about updates so I did it for her. There were well over 200. Her machine had not been compromised in any way, and I wouldn't have expected it to have been.

BTW, what distro(s) do you use that require updating every time you turn them on? Most of my distros are Debian stable based, and I sometimes go weeks without ever seeing an update.

Of course, unlike Windows, a Linux update usually completes in the background, in a couple of minutes, with no detectable affect on machine performance and no requirement to re-boot.

ELM, possibly the largest maker of OBD hardware, lists a number of Linux solutions on its website.

Chris

I think I had one that did (or made it do) the less 'deep' updates automatically.

In that you have to authenticate the process? Not sure if that is worse than not having it automated and therefore not doing them at all (which is the only reason I think they should be automated).

Really? I'll have a look when I get that far on the laptop I'm doing. ;-)

Same with many of the Linux, OSX, Android and Windows users no doubt, if (those that can) don't have it set for automatic updates.

Yup, same with most OS's for most people etc ...

Me neither, depending on the user, their general Internet access, system protection status and general activities etc.

Mostly Mint and Ubuntu.

You could well be right as I don't generally *use* (as in as a desktop machine) any Linux system on any regular basis. I have 2 Linux machines running 24/7 but they are only providing headless type services (OMV / Domoticz). The W10/Ubuntu machine only gets booted into Linux if there is something I want to try and it's the same with the XP/OSX Mini. The only time I would actually boot Linux is because I *prefer* to use the likes of Gparted if I'm playing about with a hard drive in the SATA bay or externally on USB etc. Other than that it would be to see if *I* (just an admin user and hardware guy, not an OS geek) can actually make it work on Linux. Like say the Arduino IDE or one of the cross platform 3D printing tools. At best I can (typically when it's in the repo) and I've sometimes even followed a 2 page instruction set and copy > pasted it in and got it working ... but I've also had it where I've installed it and it's run the first time and then I've not been able to get it to run again, or not run after attempting an update. Can't remember the last time I had that on Windows or needed to do any more that a simple uninstall / reinstall (when inevitably you get a desktop icon to launch it from).

Eh? When did you last use Windows?

Except when it says you should (on Linux) you mean? If the kernel was patched because of a security issue, it will only become live once you reboot (if I understand it correctly)?

Sure ... but could you point me to any free and Linux native versions of OpCom or Forscan for example?

You have also covered another massive omission for me, GPS updator / application support, plus loads of other hardware support utilities, let along the more specific stuff like motherboard BIOS updates (something I typically do on all the hardware that passes though my hands).

With this Toshiba laptop for example I guessing there would be a Tosh supplied 'updator' utility that checks for the status of all drivers and the BIOS etc, saving even having to seek out the exact right version (that can be dangerous).

But if I want to boot a machine to test it ... or play with the partitions my 'go-to' tool is Linux. I have a multiboot USB stick and 'hundreds' of Linux DVD's, going back to Mint 6 or summat (which was when I could actually get it running on most hardware, to some degree anyway).

And what is it when the inbuilt 'Driver manager' recommends you a Video driver and then you find you can't reboot the PC into a GUI ... (and if I can't I'm pretty well stuffed)? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I installed a second Linux PC in my local PC shop the other day because they often use it to recover data from customer machines when Windows won't typically mount / read the drive.

I requested it install the updates during installation, then I installed another couple when I booted for the first time and now it's downloading another 123 (289MB's worth). I'm guessing that they aren't all just 'added features'?

Well, when I say downloading, it looks like it did two and all the rest are failing ... another reboot maybe?

I've given as much input to this Linux install (so far) as I did the W10 one and the W10 install didn't misbehave once.

The thing is, I really want the Linux install to work and work easily because I'm getting nothing for doing any of it and I don't know if he's even going to be able to use Linux for anything.

Cheers, T i m

Yup, the reboot fixed it, now I'm installing Grub Custiomizer so I can manage the boot process easier.

Now installing the Intel microcode firmware with Driver Manager ... oh, and now I need to restart again apparently ...

Cheers, T i m

TL;DR

You seem determined to 'prove' that Linux doesn't suit you. That seems to be the case, so it's pointless to continue.

Chris

Yup, you don't want to hear it. ;-(

And you (typically) are highly defensive and keen to justify your of 'off piste' choice Chris? It's just like Brexit, those who preferred to remain with the status quo don't need to justify or accept the decision of those who wanted something different. It's up to those who wanted something else to prove and assist the rest to get the best out of that.

Of course it 'seems' that way but like all Linux advocates (who are an insignificant minority in the world today) you seem totally unwilling to acknowledge even that 'your personal choice / preference' isn't really up to par for today's ordinary users (even when it is installed for them by a geek). By that I'm not saying that Linux is bad as an OS, I'm just saying it's no use at all if you want to use MS Word, iTunes, update your Garmin GPS or use Forscan or OpComm.

Yes, it's pointless for you to continue swimming upstream and being in denial re where Linux currently sits in the ordinary user OS usage charts and why. You are also wasting your time trying to defend things because you see it as being 'the Linux way' when there is a good chance that as Linux evolves (and it is), the very thing you defend as being impossible or against the whole spirit / ethic of Linux, becomes so!

I'm not a geek, I'm just a hardware / support tech who had to learn a bit about the OS(s) make them work on the hardware I was using and maintaining. I am not a programmer, I didn't grow up on mainframes and I have no interest in OS's outside them being a means to an end. I also have no issues with Microsoft, Apple, Google Android or any other computer related company or OS.

I think Linux is good, if I didn't I wouldn't be using and installing in on all sorts of hardware and accept it's perfectly suited in the role of servers or imbedded solutions, even if for no other reason that it's free (so it could make commercial sense, if nothing else).

So, I am in a tiny minority in that I do run, install and even introduce it to others (often at my own cost and extra effort, as per this mates laptop I'm working on) and because of that 'admin user' experience, I see all the issues and wrinkles and so mention them when people try to advocate Linux and say Windows is cr*p when, in the same breath they admit they can't manage without Windows (assuming they are using their PC's for something other than just a typewriter).

I'm not inventing these Linux issues, they are there and are to be found all over the web and rather than all the Linux geeks in sheds working on them together to make Linux what it could be in 2017, they waste their time forking it this way and that and rarely even agree between themselves which way is forward.

Of course the Linux geeks will admit that's 'exactly how it should be' because in their heart of hearts, they don't really want to share their OS with the infidels, they want it to be 'special' they want it to be 'different' (and all the complexity that involves / brings).

At the same time we have the likes of Canonical saying Ubuntu is 'Easy to install and maintain' for anyone and can be 'Run alongside your existing OS' and how it can access all your existing data etc.

So which is it, is it an OS that should install and run and be as compatible with all other computer related stuff out there or not?

Linus himself suggests it's the latter:

But I don't expect you to read, watch or consider any of the above (why would you) so rather than being part of the solution, admitting that there are real issues that affect real people who might actually like to use Linux (but who don't want to adopt Linux as a new lifestyle choice or religion) and maybe even really helping people to get their Linux installs working, you continue to be part of the 'Linux problem'. ;-(

Anyroad up, Mint 18.1 Mate (64) now seems to be running and updated ok on this Toshiba Satellite C660-230 I'm sorting for a mate, including the softkeys, audio, WiFi and screen resolution (in the 1G of RAM).

I used W10 to update the BIOS and will install the likes of Libra Office, Skype and Teamviewer on both systems (although the Linux version of TV is just the Windows version running under WINE), Gparted on Linux and give it back to him. I'll give him as much of an overview of Linux as I can, show him how to install stuff via Synaptic or the Software Centre and see how he gets on.

If Linux is a good as some say for ordinary users then I quite expect him to be asking me to made it the default OS at boot time very soon. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

This is why I started charging for work like this and making sure that a price or a price range was agreed before starting work. Dave