So what's going on here ... ?

55 plate Mk5 Astra Estate 1.9 CDTi diesel.

So last year, the aircon packed up. Working one day, not the next. Lack of funds have prevented it being investigated, but whilst browsing the ECU for a different problem, we happened to come across a fault indicating that the gas pressure was low. A local garage have just started offering a ?15 + VAT aircon service to residents of the village. My neighbour took his motor in, and they re-gassed it for that money, which got his working again.

So I booked mine in for today figuring that even if there was a fault, it had to be worth 18 quid to get it diagnosed. When I went back to pick it up, they were most apologetic, saying that they had been unable to complete the service because the condenser was faulty. Assuming it was holed, I politely declined their ?235 to repair it, paid my ?18 and drove off. With hindsight, I probably should have asked to speak to the engineer to see exactly what he found.

But here is the bit that I now don't understand. As I drove off down the road, it was blowing frigid air. Tonight, I drove the five miles to Tesco, and the aircon was working. As I drove in, I turned it off. When I came back out and restarted, the ventillation was blowing warm air on full cold. As I gently cruised the car park, I turned the aircon back on, and felt the 'tug' on the engine as it kicked in. Further, it blew cold air all the way home again.

So what is going on here ? It didn't work when it went in. If the condenser was holed, there would have been no gas in it, which would go along with the message that was in the ECU. When the garage did a vacuum test on it, it would have failed, and as I understand it, that would have automatically prevented the system from adding gas. But clearly, as it's now working, there must be gas in it, and if it is leaking, it must be doing so extremely slowly.

What am I missing here ? Is it going to just stop again in a few days ?

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily
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Arfa Daily wrote: [snip]

Yes, probably; but it might last a few weeks.

The aircon service involves conecting a machine to the system and pressing a button, then waiting, so £15 is a perfectly reasonable charge. By contrast the £50 or £75 that most places charge is money for old rope.

The operator programs the machine with the make & model of car from which the machine looks up how much gas and lubricant is required, and leaves it for an hour or so.

The machine sucks out all the gas and lubricant, measuring how much it extracts. It sucks for many minutes to get a good vacuum, and records whether the vacuum remains stable. If not, it logs the fact, indicating to the operator that there may be a leak. It then fills the system with the specified quantities. Some vehicles may need to have the engine running with the aircon operating to complete this stage properly. It then measures the pressure for a time to confirm that the system doesn't leak at operating pressure.

It prints a report. From that the operator can see what remedial action might be necessary. Further, the operator may use a "sniffer" to check for leaks - and the gas may contain a dye visible under UV light which would show the position of a leak. This is how he suspects the condenser is the problem - but the seals on any of the couplings could be failing.

So it's not until the cycle is complete that the operator can see the problem. Replacing the condenser will only be the start of your problems - there may well be leaks elsewhere.

On the old Vauxhalls that my wife and I have owned the gas pressure drops slowly over the summer so refilling once a year will keep it working for about 6 weeks - long enough for our British summer.

By contrast I ran an old Avensis for from 2005 to 2012 and the a/c worked for the whole time without any attention.

Reply to
Graham J
[...]

15UKP would not cover the cost of the gas, UV dye, and lubricant used, let alone the capital cost of the machine, the electricity to run it etc.

It's a price designed to generate additional revenue. Whether that's by fair means or foul remains to be seen.

In the same way. a friend who runs three old vehicles goes to one of the tyre/battery/service places for oil and filter changes. They charge less than the cost of the oil and filter, but always manage to find 'urgent' other work that needs doing. He politely declines.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

Graham J wrote in news:ok1td6$rpp$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me:

indicating

Excellent Graham ! Thanks very much for that. Makes a lot of sense, now. Presumably for the test system to go ahead and put some gas in, it must consider the leak to be a bit tiny and 'if-then-maybe' in nature ? The aircon worked fine when I bought the car, and continued to do so for probably 6 or months more. I know the dealer that it came from, and nothing was done to the aircon between him getting it, and selling it on to me, so maybe the leak is very small and it will last a while. I guess that if it was in fact an O ring seal or something, all that sucking and gas injecting might have disturbed it enough to actually improve things. Or make them worse, of course ! :-)

Still, bit of a result for 18 quid, compared to what the same thing would have cost me to find out elsewhere

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

Chris Whelan wrote in news:EQ%8B.365371$ snipped-for-privacy@fx15.am:

Hi Chris. I must admit that I suspected the same thing. The 'in' thing now seems to be 'you need new discs, mate' no matter where you go or for what purpose. All of my kids have been caught by that one. I assume it's because discs are so cheap now, and so easy to replace. I'm not sure where the condenser is located on an Astra, but I wouldn't have thought that it was all that easy to replace. Looking on the 'net, they seem to be around the

60 quid mark for the Astra, so cheaper than that trade I guess. The quote was for ?235, so would they have been making REALLY good money at that ?

They are a local outfit - not BIG big, but not small - on the edge of the village, and have been there a long time. I couldn't say that I either trust or distrust them. My only association with them is that I bought a car from them a few years back, and I had no problems. The garage actually in the village that I have used regularly for many many years, and whose engineers I know very well, do send some of their work to this other garage, and do recommend them for aircon work, so I don't know really ...

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily
[snip]

[snip]

I helped a mate (supposedly experienced with a/c work, and he had the clever re-gassing machine) replace the condenser on a Cavalier. It looked straightforward but in fact the amount of stuff that had to be dismantled meant that it took all evening. So £235 could well be a sensible price for supply and fit.

As with everything on a car, they are designed to be cheap to build, not cheap to repair.

Reply to
Graham J

Nothing to prevent you gassing up a leaking system. It may well then work for some time. Depending on how bad the leak is.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)
[...]

The Autodata time for condenser replacement on your car is 1.5 hours. In the SE, no-one charges less than 70UKP/hr now, so at least 105UKP labour, and probably more like 120UKP.

Their price is not actually that bad, as it would involve a leak test, and a re-gas.

The best test of a garage is when you buy a car and something does go wrong. You are then in a position to judge their integrity by how they deal with it.

There is nothing wrong in any business using 'loss-leaders' in principle; sadly, so many garages are corrupt that they all get blamed. If they have been there a long time, chances are they are fine.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk:

Hi Dave - long time no talk. Trust you are well ?

Yes on the very slow leak. I'm hoping it will hold up for a while. As to the system being refilled, I thought that there was strict legislation now about leaks and venting refrigerant to the atmosphere, and someone else told me that detected leaks prevented the test rig from gassing a leaking system, but maybe he was wrong, or it depends on how bad the leak is.

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily
[...]

Apart from the law?

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Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

Fine thanks Arfa. Apart from being old. ;-) Hope you are too.

You can buy kits to re-gas yourself - Halfords, etc. But proper garage stuff may well not allow re-gassing if it shows a leak. My old car usually just about manages the summer before dying. But works again the next year if re-gassed. I'm fairly sure it is the compressor shaft seals leaking there.

Also think modern refrigerant isn't so bad for the environment as once was the case.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

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Tell Halfords. They sell DIY kits for re-gassing.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

The onus is jointly on the vehicle owner and the person using the gas, which in this case would presumably be one and the same. There is no requirement on a seller to determine how the gas is used.

There is an on-line seller that is really good, with lots of advice and various products much cheaper than Halfords. I've used there basic kit for a re-gas, and it worked well.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan
[...]

Depends on your definition of modern. ;-)

R134a was mandated 20 years ago as being much safer than gases used previously. Current regulations now outlaw R134a in favour of HFO-1234yf. Some cars built from 2013 use it; it (or an equivalent) is mandatory from the start of this year.

This new gas is very controversial, mostly because it is more flammable, but also because when heated it produces hydrogen fluoride. One gram of this is fatal if ingested.

A re-gas with this stuff will be problematic. Current equipment can't handle it, and the gas is horrendously expensive. My tame a/c guy reckons in excess of 200UKP for an average car!

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

Must try my local chemist for some heroin. ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Chris Whelan wrote in news:yd49B.181440$ snipped-for-privacy@fx04.am:

R134 was what they were specifying as being included in the quote to fix it ...

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily

Heh! Around here they might be able to advise where to get some...

Don't think possession of R134a is illegal yet, only its release into the atmosphere, so not quite the same.

It's completely the reverse of the situation regarding creosote, where it's illegal to sell it to someone not deemed to be a 'professional' user (with no definition of what that means), but can be used by anyone.

It makes even the most non-political person wonder what our law makers are thinking at times.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan
[...]

Even buying it in bulk it's about 15UKP a kilo, and that doesn't include lubricant or UV leak detection dye, which is why your garage was loosing money on their special offer re-gas.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk:

Yes, fine thanks, although I seem to get a little older every year - if you see what I mean ...! :-)

I don't get on usenet very often these days since VM ditched their own servers and stopped supporting whoever it was that they handed it over to, which in effect meant that they no longer officially supplied a usenet service as part of any internet package you had from them. It's still there, but it doesn't seem to get properly updated any more - although this thread seems to be getting updated in real time. Perhaps they've improved.

I keep toying with the idea of paying for a proper dedicated service. I looked at Frugal Usenet, and it seemed a fairly good deal. I might go and have another look if they're still going.

And thanks to all the people who have replied. All interesting stuff, as ever

Arfa

Reply to
Arfa Daily
[...]

AIUI, VM stopped providing support via Usenet, but never stopped providing the servers. It's the only service I've used for Usenet in a very long time.

Retention is poor (not an issue for me), and it sometimes goes down for an hour or so, but it's an order of magnitude better then Eternal September.

Chris

Reply to
Chris Whelan

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