Which car for the snow?

Ok ta. Not sure any of that would affect this shed////kitcar though. ;-)

Sweet. If only I could find a second set of steels to fit my Ranger as well as what is on there now. I believe Rickman had Weller make some specially made to fit the Ranger range and I now two sets of them. The non / Weller ones currently on the car are perfect and the others have compromises (like they foul the arch for some reason or don't sit on the rear hub as well)?

When I get to job 1283 on the list I'll do all those sorts of jobs. [1]. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[1] Fix the noisy heater. Replace the tired 1300 lump (probably with the 1600 I have somewhere). Exchange the front shock inserts for sd spec ones or put the stock inserts back on (front damping too stiff, RS2000 inserts from when I was going to fit the Pinto). Slop some paint over the now matte gellcoat. Make / fit the extension to the quickshift lever. Replace the sidelights (neighbours back into them and Wipac don't do the lenses any more).

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Oh, wow, do I know that one...

Understood and thanks. I thought that might be the outcome (from experience).

So, (and not arguing that 'winter tyres' wouldn't be better in the winter in general etc), any different tyre may have handled differently under any conditions?

No, understood, but you get my thought that unless you failed to make a hill with your summer tyres on then went home, fitted the winter tyres and then managed the same hill ok (and assuming the temperature hadn't varied or anyone else had used the surface in between), how would you know it was just the tyres?

Daughters boyfriend (in Dumfries) couldn't get up their front drive in the morning but could later the same day and the drive looked equally covered in ice on both occasions? Had he fitted winter tyres in between I guess he'd have assumed it was down to them?

I know the Ranger is better in the snow than the Sierra (was and not compared them on ice) because I drove both over the same roads within minutes of each other. With the Sierra it was difficult to climb out of the gutter up the camber and in the Ranger it felt like a normal day (by comparison etc).

Like I said, I'm not suggesting for one second winter tyres don't work, especially in 'snow' (and am considering buying some etc), just some of this, in the real world, *could* be subjective or down to unpredicted or difficult to measure properties (like any 'new' tyre might grip on snow better than a worn one simply because of it's sharp tread corners) etc?

Cheers, T i m

p.s. I am a growing fan of the saying 'you can manage what you can measure', and many a potential project has been canned when the tools give your real scientific readings rather than what we may feel / to be the facts. Like, I went round the room yesterday with an infra-red non contact thermometer and was surprised that measure that our double glazed windows were at a very similar temperature to our solid 9" brick walls, yet the glass 'feels' much colder. (I was considering lining the walls with Celotex etc but as that particular wall is mostly window ... ). Funnily there is a 2degC difference between the paneled and non paneled bit on the internal (Victorian) door out to the (unheated) hall. Maybe covering them in hardboard wasn't just a style thing? ;-)

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

It's entirely likely, but I'd expect the broad categories to all behave roughly similarly. Anecdotal evidence on the Saab forums and elsewhere backs that up.

It's entirely possible. But Occam's Razor, as ever, has to apply...

Measuring grip with winter tyres on is pretty easy though, unless you believe that every scandinavian country & all their inhabitants are in a vast conspiracy with tyre manufacturers somebody else has already done it for you. The last set I had where on the Capri, the difference between the almost new set of Goodyears & the old snow tyres was very obvious.

;-(

The trouble with me is I'm easily distracted, don't have any idea of time and don't see a 'project' for the work it's bound to turn out to be.

Like I bought a break-down (as in takes to bits) motorcycle recovery trailer as:

We have loads of bikes so it makes sense.

Don't have anywhere extra to store a(nother) trailer.

Like the idea you can carry it empty in the car.

It was Ex-RAC (so should be 'good').

But I bought it without inspection but fairly cheap off eBay and as can often be the case with such things, wasn't in very god nick. Now that fact didn't seem to stop it's owner at the time transporting his Fireblade all over the place but personally I'd like to see dust caps on BOTH hubs. I wouldn't have even put our daughters MZ 250 on there based on his 'well it's been ok like that for ages' observation.

However, it wasn't expensive and seemed basically to be all there so I threw it in the Rover and brought it home.

Long story short it's now pretty well back to it's component pieces and sitting in the garage along with brand new suspension units, wheels, bearings, tow hitch and lengths of box steel and the new steel cut-off saw. ;-(

And my mate phoned to say he'd checked the spare MZ engine over and it was ready for collection. Then I found the Ka wouldn't start and when it did (spare battery and jump leads) I was reminded that the heater doesn't work very well (but probably nothing to do with the new water pump that still sits in the boot) then that reminded me, neither does the heater in the Rover or the Ranger.

I picked up a pair of new tyres for the new (project form) electric cycle I've bought for the Mrs. I got a new pair of tubes a the same time then after getting the wheel out and tyre off (not difficult), the stems on the new tubes were too short for the double wall rims and the original tubes were only good up to 1.75 tyres and these new ones were 2.00's. At least it's re-wired and seems to be working on it's stand ...

Cheers, T i m

Even on ice? I'm not actually questioning there isn't some difference but I am at least skeptical how much difference the compound of 'a tyre' can make on ice? If you are talking about how much better grip a winter tyre could offer on a very cold damp road then I'd be happy to believe anything but those aren't the circumstances that re holding folk up out there today.

Indeed, but are we talking of the same circumstances here? Ie, does packed snow become ice in all cases? Are we saying that an ice covered 1:4 hill in Scandinavia would be no problem for every 'winter tyre'?

The back roads round here were all covered with a 1" thick layer of solid ice yet few people were having issues and (probably) all using summer tyres. I wonder how much of that was down to the fact it was flat (etc)?

I bet you could still get the tail out. ;-)

No, it may just be my understanding of the sort of circumstances I would like my tyres to work better and what chance the actual tyre would have to meet such expectations. I have no issue accepting that my summer tyre might not grip as well as a winter tyre in fresh snow or that the braking wouldn't be as good at -20degC. However, I'm not bothered about those situations (for the tiny percentage of the year it's likely to apply over here and why I guess our Government hasn't made the fitting of winter tyres compulsory ... yet).

Cheers, T i m

No, it'll be less than with a summer tyre

Oh yes

Frost & slushy where vastly improved. Common sense still required.

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Yes, it does make a difference.

Oh, if it genuinely is sheet ice and 1:4, then nothing short of crampons is going to get you up. But that's not really what we're dealing with here, either.

Not exactly sheet ice, then...

But, yes, that kind of condition is one where winter tyres will give you a BIG advantage.

So it's as I expected then, cos if there was a plain tyre (all be it 'winter compound') that could make it up even a reasonable ice covered gradient the army would be using them instead of tanks (or studded tyres at least). ;-)

So, winter tyres are 'generally better' in the winter than summer tyres. The issue (for me) is how much winter do we get and how much difference does it make when the going get's tough. Not enough I don't believe for my interpretation of the word 'tough' (and hence my initial question on snow chains etc).

Here's a fairly easy comparison question then:

Would 'winter tyres' provide better traction in snow, than summer tyres with snow chains? My guess would be 'no'?

;-)

Understood.

Of course.

Cheers, T i m

No, but if you've ever pissed around with snow chains you'd not bother with them in England, they'll get you up a hill but the noise & aggro's enormous & you have to take them off every time you get back on tarmac. Plus the winter tyres are better when it's just cold.

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Probably not.

BUT you wouldn't have the hassle of constantly fitting and removing the chains.

'A difference' ... ok.

;-)

Possibly not, however it was something similar that stopped your neighbour putting his car away?

No, but the stuff that was extremely difficult to walk on and you (if you wanted to) could wheelspin on for ages without moving.

Ok, well I'll take your BIG (as you are a pretty sensible guy and wouldn't say that for no reason) but I retain the right to remain skeptical. ;-)

Ere, would Winter tyres be about the cheapest in the Ka size? If so and I'm quick I could get a set (as a set of basic second hand steels should be cheap as well) before it all defrosts out there. I just need a tow-rope and I could earn a fortune! ;-)

Cheers, T i m

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

I got mine from camskill.co.uk

Wot I thought, ta.

Ok. That's why I asked if anyone had seen / used them (I hadn't).

Ok. So you would use them alongside yer shovel and winch rather than as a semi-permanent fitment.

To a point where 'non drivers' would appreciate the difference do you think?

Cheers, T i m

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Many "non-drivers" seem to have a difficulty appreciating the difference between half-way decent tyres and bald teflon-freds; between lights that work and lights that don't work; between windows you can see through and windows that are misted solid.

Yup. To be honest I'd probably rather leave the car at the bottom of the drive & walk up it than fit them

It's really quite noticeable once it's slushy, you can tell the difference when it's cold. The fact that they're alot better than normal tyres on ice still means ice is bloody slippery.

K

Understood, but they would get you out of a circumstance that winter tyres (alone) couldn't.

I was also thinking of what snow chains might do to the ice itself, if they could be used as a path finder for vehicles still running summer tyres? When up in Scotland I went along the worst bit of their drive with the corner of the spade I'd taken with me and that broke the ice up into chunks, in some cases exposing the tarmac underneath. It was actually quite difficult just standing there doing the job, even wearing my Hunters. Like any athlete or sportsman (runner / golfer) who really want's grip, I should have worn some spikes. ;-)

I was just trying to get a feel re what level of extra grip (rather than cold weather performance) such tyres would offer.

Cheers, T i m

T i m gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Very unlikely.