1959 Bel Air versus 2009 Malibu - NMC but at least car-related

those late '50s/early 60's Chevys with the X frames didn't do all that great in the old demolition derby contests, no hope vs Buick Electras and Merc Marquis, let alone the full sized Mopars.

I would have liked to see a '59 Imperial for a true test of Detroit Iron. X-Frames not so good in collisions.

You're quoting the same people who rated the Malibu's reliability worst of all cars in it's comparison?

Sounds like junk to me, I think you just helped me prove my point.

No, in the JD Powers published results that I quoted, five stars was the highest rating, and only the Malibu achieved it.

The reliability projection that you are quoting is based on J.D. Powers 3-year study of 2006 models, when the current Malibu didn't exist (it was introduced in 2008) and shows that Chevrolets of 2006 had an average of 184 problems per 100 cars during that three year period, as opposed to an average of 173 problems per 100 cars for all

Now, given that J.D. Powers themselves rated the 2008 and 2009 Malibu as being higher quality than the other cars in the mid-size sedan class, and given that the 2008 and 2009 model Malibus are completely different cars than the 2006 models; I would say that the "projected" reliability of those models based on the 2006 results are likely to prove inaccurate.

Even if not, having one additional problem for every 10 cars over a three year period than the class average hardly seems like an honest basis for calling a car "junk" or "pathetic."

I agree with your observations, Chris. I have owned Chevys, Buicks, Fords, Triumphs, BMWs, Renaults, Datsuns, MGs, Mazdas, and more, and I buy what I want based on the individual model, year, features, and my own ability to deal with any problems that might crop up. I currently own domestice and imported cars and motorcycles, and while I support the U.S. economy whenever possible, no U.S. manufacturer is builidng Miatas or Miata competitors right now, so I have a Mazda. But I know people at work whose PARENTS had one bad experience with a Dodge Omni or a Ford Tempo back in the 1970's or 1980's, and those people will NEVER consider an American car. They are Honda or Toyota buyers for life, regardless of the facts of the marketplace.

I once counted up all the cars and trucks I have owned in my 35 years of driving, and the total is over 40. I have never once had a single "lemon" or bad car. The 2001 BMW Z3 3.0i coupe that I bought (coincidentally the most expensive car I've ever owned and the last new car I bought) was probably the worst in terms of number of initial problems and inability of the dealer network to fix (all under warranty); the bottom of the line 1978 Renauly LeCar I owned (the least expensive and first new car I ever bought) was better built and used higher quality materials, but the difference wasn't that much.

Anyway, my Mom has a 2008 Toyota Camry 4-cylinder, and it's a nice enough car, but it was outrageously expensive, and she keeps it reliable by taking it to the dealer about every two months. Meanwhile, my 2006 Chevy pick-up just gets its oil and filter changed and has only revisted the dealer once in its lifetime.

Heck, I think I'd enjoy owning the 1959 Bel Air more than the 2009 Malibu, anyway!

My parent's 1994 Camry has never been back to the dealership. My 1995 Honda Accord went in for service every 6 months until I received it this month. Both cars have been extremely reliable. The Accord, with 77,000 miles, is in a bit better shape than the Camry with 164,000 miles.

Taking the 2008 Camry in every 2 months may help your mother's peace of mind, but the Camry is a reliable car model with or without excessive service/maintenance. Yes, the Camrys are expensive, I agree.

Did you ever own a 1986 Ford LTD? That was a true lemon. The number of things that went wrong with this car would take a while to type out. It was owned by my parents, but I still ended up driving a 1990 Ford Thunderbird SC that fell apart at a little over 100,000 miles, after breaking 3 transmissions before it hit 90K.

It was not that many years back that I rented a Ford Mustang with 300 miles on it, a 2003 or maybe 2004 model. That Mustang was an awful pig of a vehicle to drive, though it did not break down, so I guess there was some improvement over the LTD and the Thunderbird.

After watching my parent's Camry and many other imports easily go to

The automotive sales numbers make a far stronger argument than either one of us ever will.

Pat

"Buying domestic" does not help "the U.S. economy." It helps the firm and industry that makes the product, at the expense of firms and industries that manufacture for export. So if you want to help GM by denying yourself a better imported product, fine. But do not be under the delusion that it's good for the economy. That is propoganda.

Well, not completely. The workers who assemble domestic cars are fairly likely to spend most of their pay locally. That helps keep bars, casinos, and bowling alleys in business. Of course, this applies equally to "foreign" models assembled in U.S. plants.

As a taxpayer, I want GM to succeed so I'll get some some return on my involuntary "investment." But not enough to replace either of my Mazdas with some lump of domestic coal.

My sentiments exactly. That's why I have a Chevy pick-up and a Mazda Miata, a Harley touring bike and Ducati sportbikes. The moment Harley builds a better sportbike than Ducati, I will buy one. The moment Chevy builds a better lightweight sportscar than the Miata, I'll buy one. If only Chevy could apply the world class formula they have in the Corvette to a 7/8's or 3/4 scale Solstice/Sky, then I could enjoy one of those!

Since my 401(k) and that of many, many other Americans typically holds more domestic stocks than foreign stocks, obviously buying U.S. products and keeping U.S. companies healthy (not to mention preventing things like the stimulus package in the first place) helps our country. That's not propaganda, but assuming that any imported product is better than any GM product is propaganda, pure and simple.

If only Chevy could apply the world class formula they

But does it have a HUGE TAK?

Iva & Vixen (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

I've driven and have friends who own Corvettes as both daily drivers and track cars, as well as a good, close friend who has raced both Corvettes and Miatas, and my experiences with them have been nothing like that particular description. The current Corvette is very light, very agile, as well as stunningly fast, incredible handling, and has great brakes that are completely up to the task of slowing the car on both the road and at the track. Definitely a world class car in every respect.

Likewise, I've had nothing but stellar experiences with Chevy dealers in the last 10 years, and of all the Chevy vehicles I've owned in the last 10 years, I've had exactly one problem, which was taken care of in one visit to the dealer, under warranty.

So, while I love my current Miata (and am enjoying it more each day, which I find hard to believe considering how much it is already making me smile) and I loved my '92 Miata (which is still my oldest son's daily driver to this day) and I love cheering on my middle son racing his '90 Miata (and if I go back to racing, it will almost 100% certainly be in a Miata), I will continue to keep my eyes and ears open for other cars (trucks, motorcycles) by other manufacturers, foreign or domestic, that fit my needs and desires, and if the vehicle seems right to me, I'll buy it and take my chances that it, too, will make me as happy as my other choices have in the past. Heck, I might even someday buy another BMW, even though the one that I owned was the worst built car I've ever ownedf and had the most problems of any new car I ever bought, and causedf me to have to do business with the worst (three different) automobile dealers I've ever dealt with!

Right now, I'm looking forward to test driving an Abarth Fiat 500 as soon as Chrysler/Fiat brings them to the U.S. next year!

Tim, now that'll be a fun car! In fact it sounds like it's going to be an interesting enough vehicle to entice you ;-) You know when Michael Schumacher was on Top Gear, he said that's his daily driver (when he's not driving the kids around in the 'estate')

Chris

Tim wrote: "Right now, I'm looking forward to test driving an Abarth Fiat 500 as soon as Chrysler/Fiat brings them to the U.S. next year!

I am glad that you have had such good luck with domestic vehicles. If my luck with them was half as good as what you report, I might also consider buying another one.

My life experience is that American vehicles are poorly-made products that are generally beaten, and beaten badly, by the Japanese competition.

At the risk of repeating myself, the automotive sales numbers make a far stronger argument than either one of us ever will.

What qualifies as a "HUGE TAK!"?

I saw one that was 5 inches across at Autozone, but that seems medium-sized at best.

If anyone has a TAK! that is more HUGE than 5 inches, I want to see it, and probably, to buy it to install in my Miata.

The legend of the HUGE TAK! Miata shall never die..........That car was "fast, fast, & yup, ferious!", according to the ad. :-)

Pat

He obviously misspelled "ferrous."

Are you sure the car didn't actually have a HUGH TAK?

That's a very interesting (and insightful) look at the automotive history of the past, right up till now!

Couple thoughts, with all those years of so many Americans buying s***ty American cars (Chevettes and Citations and such) how could you NOT have a populace with a lingering bad taste in their mouth! They were selling s***ty cars to Americans who were buying them in great part, solely on the Nationalistic view that it was good for America. Honestly, it would have been better for America in the long run to realize (earlier) that the best way to sell a s*it load of cars is to build great cars, not to wrap them in the flag like GM and the others did for so long! That's what I call (sadly) good marketing in place of good product!

What fun to see the battle displayed like that! Reminds me of when the Taurus was a great car. I owned one that first year in 1986 and loved it. It had it's (American) flaws (cheap interior with mediocre ergonomics) but, it had the look of the future!

Thanks Pat.

Chris

The "bad" American cars I owned ranged from 1974 to 1985 and ended abruptly right there. Even the "bad" ones were totally reliable and inexpensive to own and operate. They were bad because Detroit was reeling; trying to accomodate unleaded fuel, catalytic converters, 5- mph bumper laws, and low compression engines all at once.

I remember Toyota and Honda owners who predicted all sorts of dire consequences for me when I bought my brand new, first year of production, 1988 Chevy Beretta 2.8L GT. I owned it for 75,000 miles before my kids got too big for the back seat and sold it to buy a used

There is one good thing about the general disdain and distaste that Americans have for American cars, though. It allows people like my 20- year-old college student daughter to buy a 2-year-old off-lease Cadillac CTS-V with 17,000 miles on it, a 406 hp all aluminum V8, a 6- speed manual transmission, independent rear suspension, four huge disk brakes, butter soft leather interior, for less than 50% of its original MSRP in 2007, with a full warranty as a GM certified used car, all on a part-time Karate instructor's pay. Even used, even three years old now, even with another 13,000 miles on it, she hasn't yet had a single thing go wrong with it. It's kind of the opposite of my experience with my BMW Z3 3.0i Coupe, which I bought new and then spent over nine trips to various dealers trying to get it to run properly before giving up after 17 months and dumping it.

Of course, when all the American car companies are out of business, there will be no more bargains like that to be had. It will be interesting to see what Americans think of paying world prices for their import and captive import cars when the domestic competition is gone.

(Oh, and I had a used Chevy Citation X11 that was far from a terrible car, either. Bought it from a guy going overseas for $10 (yes, $10) because it wouldn't pass emissions or safety inspections in Virginia, even though it only had 90,000 miles on it. Replaced the air injection tubing on the exhaust manifold where one 90-degree bend had rusted through, and put an aftermarket muffler on it to replace the rusted out original, 15-year-old item, buffed out the faded paint, passed both inspections easily, and sold it for $650 with one weekend on display at my local supermarket parking lot. Yeah, that one had a rattle or two. Just AWFUL!)

Oh god, I owned a dodge Omni 024. What a horrible, piece of s*it car. Yes, that was the last straw for me, I have never purchased an American made car since. Traded that for a Mazda pickup that went over 100k without a hitch. I spent more time fixing that Omni than driving it. From the world's worst shifter linkage to door handles that broke and left standing outside a locked car.. (Yes, I had to crawl in from the passenger side most of the time since the drivers door handle was usually broken. ) I'll look at US made cars at the autoshow but I'd never lay down money for one of them.

Squat

Thank-you for perfectly illustrating my point!