1959 Bel Air versus 2009 Malibu - NMC but at least car-related

LOL, No can't say that that ever happened. The 024 just sounded like stuff was going to fall off while I drove it.

It's funny, I used to give US car makers the benefit of the doubt until I bought an old, 2nd gen RX7 that had been run pretty hard. I bought it cheap when I moved tot eh east coast and didn't want to spend much a car that I was only going to keep for a year or so. This old RX7 had 75k miles or so on it. We're talking cigarette burns, and all. I bought it for $1200 and drove it for a year. all in all, it was a better car than any US made car that I have ever owned.

I worked for National Car rental while in college. They used mostly GM cars, Kept their mechanics quite busy...

Since what year? GM was still making cars that are just awful monstrosities at least as late as 2004, and I doubt if that was the last year of crap production. Are you talking about a change of maybe 2 or 3 years?

discontent left over from the old GM.

I doubt it, and I didn't really hate GM until the undeserved bailout, I simply avoided buying their inferior products.

Fat, lazy Americans make shitty cars, it is pretty simple.

Pat

How did he illustrate your point?

You claimed, and I quote, "I know people at work whose PARENTS had one bad experience with a Dodge Omni or a Ford Tempo back in the 1970's or

1980's, and those people will NEVER consider an American car."

This was not his parent's Omni that he is talking about, it was his own, so it actually does not illustrate your point in any way at all.

You are starting to stand very alone here in defending the pure shit vehicles that Detroit has been producing, and is still producing today.

All it takes is a little common sense not to buy these awful cars.

Pat

An ode to American cars. :-)

Pat

The Pontiacs were/are awful. The early 1990's was Pontiac's time of perhaps the most hideous external plastic application ever seen on production cars, but......we should not think that they are shit vehicles, because that is all propaganda, not our personal experience or anything.

Also consider the 1986 Ford LTD, as no worse car was ever made.

Without joking, I saw one that simultaneously had all 4 of the electric windows inoperable, with a heater that would not turn off, during the summer in Texas.

If Japan had ever produced such a complete hunk of crap as that LTD during my lifetime, I would have a different opinion on their vehicles.

If America had put a just a tiny bit of effort into reducing the shit production, then again, I a might have a different take on American cars, and maybe even a better attitude about American people.

Pat

Built, yes. Made, no.

Give me the tools and a little training and I can put almost any car together, especially if it is just specific parts of the assembly process on an assembly line.

Ask me to design a good car, however, and big trouble will occur.

Pat

Ahhhh, I understand. We may not agree on the domestic car issue, but that is OK, we are all just a bunch of Miata nuts here anyway. :-)

Good luck to your son as well, whatever make of car he may be working with at any given time. :-)

Pat

yes they are, but not uaw americans. i think that the uaw has unwittingly undermined their own purpose and are the major reason why gm and chrysler are where they are today. because the uaw managed to achieve so many benefits the american automakers were simply not competing on the same level as the foreign automakers. because of the burden of labor expense on each car produced they had to cut costs in other ways to stay competitive. the result was obvious and history was written. the american automakers have been trying to negotiate their way out of the this burden over the last few years, doing things like shifting the pension plans over to the unions, but it is the recent collapse that has allowed the major us automakers to renegotiate the union contracts that may actually help these people keep their jobs. can't blame them for trying to negotiate their best possible compensation but when it was obviously hurting the health of the company it just seems greedy and shortsighted that they kept asking for more. of course there is more to this story but in a nutshell that is my sense of it.

"Tim M." wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@b18g2000vbl.googlegroups.com... On Oct 19, 5:56 am, pws wrote:

Aren't most Toyotas and Hondas and BMWs sold in the U.S. built by Americans? I was under the impression that that was quite a point of pride among both the companies that advetise that fact and the owners of cars built by those companies.

Now, wait a minute there Squat, I owned a Dodge Omni 024 (and so did my brother) and (both of us) had very good fortune with that car. To be honest I was still young and stupid, in that I had more money than sense, and I traded it in after a couple years on something newer / hotter. Maybe that's why I didn't have issues with it but in the first couple years it was pretty much bullet proof as far as I remember. YMMV ;-)

Keep in mind that you're saying you've given up on all domestic cars because of an experience in the 80's ! I don't know about that.

Chris

99BBB

Thank God, maybe Pat is mellowing out just a touch in his old age ;-) I love it!

Chris

99BBB

While there's some truth to what you say Christopher, imho it over simplifies the issue hugely and takes pretty much the standard 'corporate' mentality vision. Again, I don't argue that the Labor Unions did some bad stuff when they were the holder of the 'big stick' (as I like to put it) but believe me, the companies returned the favor when the stick traded hands occasionally. I think a greater portion of the blame has to go to management. Too many bean counters put in charge and a 'quick profits to the shareholders' mentality are more the culprit, I think. Short sightedness is what has so badly wounded the domestic car makers. If the whole problem was the horribly expensive labor and pensions over the years, how was GM able to price it's cars below the Japanese carmakers? Even the lower prices couldn't sell them in sufficient volumes because they had sold too many of their customers a false bill of goods for too long.

I think it's great that Tim has had such good fortune with American vehicles. I too have had quite good fortune with the ones I've owned and so, I have also not written the domestics 'off'. But, I know that I was too close to the exception to the rule, to jump back into an American car w/o seeing some (at least medium term) seriously improved results. If the domestics continue to be built better and better, I think they can regain their previous stature but it won't be easy or quick and corporate America does not have much in the way of patience.

Chris

99BBB

I'd like to point out that the American car manufacturers, like most employers, offer health insurance as a benefit to their employees. Look at this chart

and see what kind of comparative disadvantage this imposes on Detroit. (Also note that the data come from 2003; the disparity between the U.S. and the rest of the world has grown ebven worse since then.)

The per capita expenditure on health for the U.S. in 2003 was $6,711 and all American car manufacturers - in fact, all American businesses which provide health insurance as part of their employee benefits - paid proportionally. Meanwhile in Germany it was $2,983; in Japan, $2,249, and in France, which has what is regarded as the best health care on the planet, $3,048. Less than half for comparable or superior health care! Less than half!

The difference, of course, is that in these countries the citizens, through their governments, actually regulate the health care system for their benefit, whereas in the U.S. the insurance companies control health care in order to maximize their own profits. It's as though we had decided to privatize the roads, and there was a toll booth every five miles up and down every highway. The toll booth operators would be rolling in dough, and the rest of the country would grind to a halt.

Instead of worrying about what the UAW does for its members and how can we reduce their benefits to third-world levels, Americans should focus on restraining the out-of-control costs of health care for all citizens. We should start by dragging all those parasitical health insurance companies into the nearest ditch and shooting them in the head.

yrs WDK

health care reform as pro business. that is the way to sell it! hope obama reads your post.

Hey, frak off Chris! (Oh shit, I just showed my Battlestar Galactica geekiness)

Mellow my ass............. ;-)

Pat - 47 days to age 40, and hating it..........

I was 40, it didn't hurt a bit!