Re: Are Mercedes Benz overpriced?

That's exactly what came to mind when I read the original post -- the ongoing research and development costs of past and future models are borne across the model lines.

If it takes something like $12 million to develop and introduce one new engine design, think of how many different engines has MB has developed in the last 20 years. It's expensive, and it's something most other car makers don't/won't/can't do.

Did I hear that GM still uses a 1968 engine solely because it's too expensive to develop a replacement? Because its customers don't want to pay for any real design improvements, even if it's a $400 stability control program like ESP? They want cupholders, not a car that's safe on the road.

Some people may be driving MBs out of sheer smugness, the self-satisfaction that the socially insecure need and crave, but I came to admire the research and development of the engines and drivetrains from racing years, and the fact that these 100+ years of design come from a company whose customers travel at extended high Autobahn speeds with an essential need for handling, safety and comfort.

Rugbyguy

Reply to
rugbyguy
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Variable valve technology - a minor improvement.

Clearly a mistake: High revs, much noise etc. pp.

The Prius indeed is intelligent.

Talk about it when it is available.

Another airbag - not bad, but of no importance at all compared to the company which had airbags in their regular line of cars from

1982 on: Yes, that is NOT Toyota!

I am definitely not.

Just to give you an overview of Mercedes activities: (cite on, short version)

The History of Mercedes-Benz Safety

From 1939

First development of safety features in Mercedes-Benz Test Vehicle No. 11: rigid side-impact protection, extremely stiff floor, multi-piece steering column. Made available in 1953 in the Mercedes-Benz 180.

1949

Mercedes-Benz safety door lock patented. The pin and wedge design significantly reduces the likelihood of impact-induced door opening for jamming.

1951

Daimler-Benz develops the first safety car body in the world, which is then produced for the first time in the 180 model.

1959

First impact and roll-over tests. Only tests under realistic conditions lead to better results. In a single year, Daimler-Benz crashed 80 cars to identify safety problems.

The first production vehicle in the world with an occupant friendly interior. Probable impact surfaces in the interior with large contact areas and energy absorbing: large contact surface, upholstered steering wheel hub, upholstered and yielding instrument panel, deformable control knobs and switches, upholstered sun visors, door trim and armrest, window crank with deformable knob, recessed door handles, break-away inside mirror.

1961

Seatbelt anchorages as standard.

1966

Development of a safety strategy leading to systematic safety research at Mercedes-Benz. First significant safety aspects are defined, this leads to the now well known concepts of active and passive safety.

1967

Mercedes-Benz safety steering. The system can depending on impact severity incrementally deform. The dangerous spear effect is reduced. Large surface area on steering wheel hub with deformable center. Telescopic steering column. Steering gear positioned far towards the rear.

1968

Introduction of Mercedes-Benz head restraints. Three-point static seatbelt available as an optional extra. First tests with airbag systems.

From 1969

Systematic investigation and analysis of traffic accidents.

1971

Seat belt buckle attached to seat frame. Three-point inertia-reel seatbelt available as an optional extra.

1971-1974

Concept design and further development of Experimental Safety Vehicles ESF 03, ESF 05, ESF 13, ESF 22 and ESF 24.

1973

Inertia-reel seatbelts and head restraints on the front seats fitted as standard. First Mercedes-Benz offset crash test.

1979

Introduction of offset crash as a realistic internal test procedure.

Introduction of the forked-member design.

Seatbelts on all seats as standard.

Three-stage height adjustment of seatbelts in the S-Class.

1980

Daimler-Benz is the only manufacturer in the world to introduce the driver airbag in the steering wheel and the belt tensioner for the front passenger.

1981

Research car Auto 2000, among other things with integral seats for driver and front passenger (all belt attachments on the seat), integrated child restraint system in the rear and pedestrian-friendly bumper.

1984

Belt tensioners fitted as standard on the front seats.

1987

Presentation of the front passenger airbag, initially for the S-Class, at the Frankfurt Motor Show.

1989

Presentation of the SL sports car with integral front seats and automatic roll-over bar.

1990

The E-Class (W 124 series) scores best marks in the auto motor und sport crash test.

1991

Updated draft of Mercedes-Benz safety strategy. Main target: reduction of the risk of chest injuries in frontal collisions. The S-Class (W 140) sets new safety standards with its restraint systems, crumple zones and passenger cell design.

1992

Anniversary: the one millionth car with airbag system, a 200 E, comes off the assembly line. A ten-year-old Mercedes is crash-tested to prove the airbag's operational reliability. First offset crash against a deformable barrier.

1993

Together with DEKRA, Daimler-Benz develops a high-precision track guidance system for car/car tests.

The driver airbag is standard; the front passenger airbag is available for all model series. The offset crash against the deformable barrier becomes a standard test in the development of new Mercedes-Benz cars.

1994

Review of safety strategy. Focus on compatibility, i.e. protection of the occupants of the other car involved in an accident.

The deformable barrier for offset frontal collisions becomes a major element of a European draft bill.

Integral child safety seats become available first for the C-Class and then for virtually all model series.

Front passenger airbag included in the standard specifications.

1995

Daimler-Benz is the world's first manufacturer to install higher-performance belt tensioners with integrated belt force limiters.

S-Class fitted with side airbags as standards.

1997

Market launch of the A-Class (W 168). With its numerous innovative safety features, it sets new passive safety standards for cars in this category.

All Mercedes-Benz cars are fitted with side airbags as standard.

1998

Introduction of the newly developed window-bag and rear-seat side airbag. The cushion complements the protective effect of the side airbags in the doors. Copyright 1998-2003 DaimlerChrysler. (cite end)

For some other technical things like BAS, EHB or Linguatronic see also

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Mercedes can as people buy all they produce despite the high prices (ok, we except the Vaneo here).

Yes, with most people. But there are enogh MB customers who happily pay for better safety.

Compared to some Toyota models it is.

Ok, now it is your turn - Toyota and safety since 1939.

Juergen

Reply to
Juergen .

I find it impressive that even their 1.0 litre Yaris has a VVT-i engine.

And very exciting. A sports car is supposed to make noise :)

Yay :)

To say that Toyota is free from innovations?

But people buy stupidly priced handbags, claiming their "quality" is superior. We all know its about image.

The Avensis got a 5 star rating in the Euro-ncap crash tests, matching the C-class. Like I said, the Avensis seems to be able to match or better the C-class on every account and does it for a much cheaper price.

Heh, I am not a mad Toyota fan :)

Reply to
Oliver Keating

Except for the price of an AMG car you could buy one of those "whiny 4 cyl engines" and have enough money left over to buy a cruiser.

Reply to
Oliver Keating

Yes - this is what I am getting at. Mercedes standards have been slipping slowly, while the standards of Toyota (and some others) has been quietly improving. I think we are at the stage where M-B needs to work harder to stay on top and justify its premium.

Reply to
Oliver Keating

Not in production? 30 Citaro busses with fuel cells are currently operated in ten major European cities, one of those is Madrid.

Have a look at

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Juergen did not write "no" innovations, he wrote "without any major" innovations - there is a huge difference and I support this statement.

Chris

Reply to
Christian Walther

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&navRoot=/toyota_root&edname=Avensismain&catname=%2ftoyota_root%2fTopNav%2fS> ee+the+Range%2fAvensis&zone=Zone+Avensis&menuid=27186 Nice, but looks like a Bora/Jetta. Years down the road, it will look dated and ugly, unlike a 124/126

Reply to
cp

What's the point of most hybrids? They are more complicated, small and take as much a simpler and better Jetaa/Bora TDI or Golf

Reply to
cp

Then why does a comparable BMW cost less? The 7 series cost less than an S class; but the 7 outperforms the S. The 5 outperforms the E, and the 5 costs less. The 3 outperforms the C, and the 3 costs slightly less. BMW also puts a lot into R&D.

MB has real competition from BMW, Lexus, Infinity, Acura, and Audi...... and reliability and performance are big factors.

Reply to
H8That

I actually admire all cars that are built well. I was also happy to see how much the Jaguars have improved.

On the flip side, I criticize cars when they are not doing well. And I hate excuses by putting down other cars. Someone in this newsgroup said it is ultimately up to the consumers despite all the money MB puts into R&D. I am a consumer, and I demand more from such a premium tag. I bought a 2001 MB and the list of problems have been a headache. Once, the CD player on the Navigation system refused to cough out my CD. They had to replace the entire Navigation system.......... and I took a day off from work - AGAIN! My girlfriend's Acura - absolutely no problem - that thing would probably run on water. My parents have had one MB after another until now..... they switched to BMW745i and Lexus LS430 each. MB can't continue to justify its position as the supreme luxury cars. Both cost less than an S class.

Are BMW workers handmaking Rolls Royce now?

Oh - the 190E is a real classic!--- hahaha

Probably, but after a long day at work, it's kind of fun to be a computer nerd and argue a little :)

Reply to
H8That

I've had very little problems with my SL and E class (both late model). The E class first year teleaid system was spooked but after that all has been well. From reading complaints such as yours and comparing them to experiences such as mine it seems as if the main problem with MB nowadays is lack of consistency. You either get a good, reliable car or you get one with loads of headaches. In the latter case the vehicle appears less in need of a mechanic than it does of an exorcism.

h
Reply to
Harvey Louzon

There is a possibility that the owners with bad experiences are much more motivated to express their unhappiness than the owners with good experiences are motivated to express their happiness. On-line forums for this reason may not accurately reflect the ratio of happy to unhappy owners.

. .
Reply to
greek_philosophizer

Could be true. I bought a 99 S420 lease return with 38,000 miles. It now has 50,000. I carry a fair number of customers, and everyone is comfortable in both the front and the back. So far it is an excellent vehicle. I paid $42,500.00 and had some minor work done under warranty. Dealer was pleasant, maintenance is expensive, but not notably more than other brands, and the ride/fit and finish/ comfort, suspension, etc. are all first class.

Reply to
GSXR1000

High MPG is just a nice side-effect of the current hybrids. (Current hybrids = Honda Insight, Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius) And you can still get that high MPG with a CVT (advanced automatic) transmission!

The main thing is low emissions.

Even the "worst" of the current hybrids is ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicle). Gets about a 7 on the EPA Pollution score (0=worst,

10=cleanest). Most meet SULEV, and some even the AT-PZEV emissions qualities.

The VW TDIs that you mention only get their high MPG if you get the manual transmission version. In the US, they get an EPA Pollution score of 1. (If you manage to import (the relatively) clean European diesel fuel, or perhaps if you run on pure biodiesel, then the emissions on the US VW TDIs may be better, but on current US diesel fuel (dirty!) the emissions are not good at all.)

Reply to
Michelle Vadeboncoeur

meant they take less fuel

Reply to
cp

Good point.

Then the US should get with the times, learn how to drive stick and get the better euro type fuel. Why complicate life with this hybrid nonsense? R&D should stick with finding an alternative fuel, not this.

Reply to
cp

Just to add a comment about the me-too ness of Toyota, It is very difficult to tell the difference from the rear of a Lexus LS and the E type,especially the w210 with some recent model LS. The main difference is the L in the badge rather than the tri-star.

Now is someone going to say that MG copied the Lexus?

Bob B

Juergen . wrote:

Reply to
bobb

...and because, I believe, Merc dealerships make an extra effort in getting taxi drivers back on the road, knowing how dependent they are on their cars.

Mercs are popular as taxis in Switzerland, Netherlands...

DAS

--

Reply to
Dori Schmetterling

Ugly? Individually designed! ;-))

Juergen

Reply to
Juergen .

Yes, here in Germany a taxi goes in last and goes out first. Also in bigger cities there is a 365 day

24 hour emergency service for repairs and parts plus loaner taxis for longr repairs.

MB has understood since ages how important taxis are for the brand reputation.

Juergen

Reply to
Juergen .

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