Pug 407 Coupe

Not really, it's the size of a 7 or an A8 yet lighter than a 3 or A4.

Aluminium may be lighter than steel but to get the same crash protection needs up to 50% more of the stuff.

snipped-for-privacy@italiancar.co.uk (SteveH) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Oh, yes, so it does.

"DanB" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

...but more dangerous for what/whoever else, which means they need to have a heavier car to "be safe".

But as well as increased fuel usage, there's a requirement for bigger heavier (more expensive...) tyres, bigger brakes, more wear on the rest of the drivetrain and on the road, etc. etc. etc.

Well that's their problem ;-)

But as cars have got heavier, engines have got better, so mpg hasn't really got worse. I know you could say but if weight hadn't gone up, then MPG would've got loads better - true, but then I wouldn't have keyless entry and push button start.

To be fair, the Ford / PSA V6 diesel is shockingly thirsty.... it's top rate VED on emissions and only does about 32mpg.

Well yea, that's the price to pay for trying to make it drive as well as a petrol I suppose, twin turbos to give a broad(ish) power band, and big peak power. It means petrol MPG too. A 3.0 V6 petrol with more power, the BM one for example, well that's a straight 6 but still, a 3,000cc petrol engine with 267bhp (iirc) will do 32mpg on a run. Although I suspect the combined figure is a bit less.

Then throw in far taller gearing, greatly refined aerodynamics, better quality tyres (grip plus low rolling resistance), improved lubricants and certainly in the case of diesel, better quality fuels too.

Modern stuff is less consistent with fuel consumption compared with older stuff. Driven with half a mind towards economy _and_ away from the city, like for like models tend to be more economical now compared to 10 or 20 years ago. Driven moderately hard, more modern stuff _tends_ to be thirstier, thanks to more power lugging more weight.

Yea that sounds about right to me, some stuff will see almost 65-70mpg on a run nowadays, which was just unthinkable 20 years AFAIK.

Can I mention Passats at this point.

I mentioned them earlier, but I think I got away with it ;-)

On a serious note, when we had the heavy snow back in Feb. 2007, I set cruise to 60mph on a very empty M4 for the run back from London to home and *averaged* over 65mpg until I got stuck for a couple of hours.

See imagine an old diesel Cavalier/Sierra or whatever, it would have less power, less weight and probably not be able to go over 50mpg - although I don't know if there even were diesel Sierras an Cavs heh, someone else needs to step in here. Or a 405 TD - I know they existed, but they wouldn't give you over 55mpg even on a long nun-run.

Sounds like a new Robbie Coltraine film....

I'm trying to visualise what a "nun-run" is. I know a beer run involves going to the nearest foreign country in a big estate car/van/car+trailer where beer is at least perceived to be cheaper, stocking up, then driving back. Is a nun run similar, but not for beer? I can't see the attraction in it myself.

Oh, and they did diesel Sierras - 2.3TDs - dunno if they were any good or not. Cavs got the 1.7TD lumps - either the GM (s**te) or Isuzu (a bit better), or even the 1.7D GM lumps.

Having driven a Diesel Sierra, the amazing[1] 2.3 Pug engined one, I can assure you I'd rather eat my own feet than try to drive one economically. Or at all...

[1] No redeeming features, none, at all.....

The first diesel Sierra had a 2.3 naturally aspirated four cylinder lump; my Dad had one. It would return ~40 to 45 to the gallon in use over in Germany. With all of its 65 bhp. :)

Acceleration was not brisk, but it would top a genuine 100 mph thanks to efficient aerodynamics and spot on gearing.

I can think of one redeeming feature - it was more pleasant to cruise in than the 1.3 model...

Just about. The mark two Fiesta 1.6 diesel would see these sorts of figures. Lots of the Young Farmers ran these (or their Escort cousin), on red diesel.

Precisely; it's a trait shared by many similar machines. Older machines wouldn't get there - my mark one Mondeo TD would show low 50s on a similar trip.

*But* when driven fairly hard, our Passat TDIs, Mondeo TDs and Xantia TDs would see high 30s. The 406 was a little heavier all of the time.

Yeah there were. In the UK market, diesels were starting to be introduced to mainsteam stuff in the early 1980s. Now over on the continent, BMW, Talbot, Peugeot, Citroen and Volkswagen were selling diesels from the 1970s. As I remember, it was about 1982 when many, many cars gained "economy gauges" and adverts proudly displayed the coefficient of drag for the car in question. Blame the high price of oil*, but I digress.

When Vauxhall dropped their 1.6 diesel into the Cavalier, the car was an absolute slug with ubertall gearing too. 88 mph, 0 - 60** in 18 or so seconds. But it returned a claimed 43 to the gallon.*** The Sierra was a little quicker but thirstier (41.5 to the gallon). The 1.6 petrol Sierra returned ~35 as I remember and whilst it was no ball of fire, was a much nicer car to drive. *But* diesel was cheaper than leaded. Much cheaper in Germany. It was about half price for RAF peeps. Kinda like LPG is at the moment; people, having gotten used to cheap fuel, suddenly found it expensive to fill up.

We took a twelve year old 1.5 diesel Golf as a trade in once. VW upgraded their diesel to a 1.6 in ~1983.

Ya; the earlier ones used a 1.8 litre engine (then saw service in the Rover

200 and 400) whereas the second generation machines used the fab 1.9 XUD engine.

Direct injection was reputed to be around 20% to 25% more efficient than indirect injection. Common rail can be more efficient, not always. Diesels have had to evolve thanks to emission control gubbins; there was a time when a big manufacturer claimed that no diesel would ever pas Euro IV emissions...

*which is still effectively cheaper at these prices. **none of this 0 - 62 crap we have these days. :) ***too many years spent in car dealerships as a kid. ****old fashioned cruise control = maximum speed

"DervMan" gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Citroen had a diesel version of the Rosalie on the market in the '30s, of course - although they then quietly forgot all about it until the CX came out. The CX2200 diesel (all 66bhp of it) was available in the UK from '75.

There'd also been diesel version of various forgettable British sheds (Standard Vanguard?) in the '50s.