Differences and Opinions between 70 Cleveland and Windsor Engines

For what use? 2V or 4V Cleveland? The Windsor is more of a low RPM engine. Starting from nothing, the 351W is a lot less expensive to acquire, there are lots of heads and intakes available to make one run.

For a hot street machine, the 460 is King.

Al

Yea, I'm going to drop a 460 in the '70 fastback I just bought.

First came the Challenger V8, in 260, 289, and 302 cubic inch versions. The Challenger's heads had the valves all in a line, a configuration commonly referred to as a "wedge" head. This design limits valve size, and hence air flow, because the valves are not centered in the bore.

In 1969 came the tall deck (9.2" iirc) 351 version of the Challenger. Most parts were interchangeable with the Challenger, in particular the heads (although the 351 heads have bigger bolt holes).

In 1970 came the 351 Cleveland. This was a completely new design and has no parts in common with the Challenger. At this time the tall deck Challenger started being called the Windsor, to keep it separate from the Cleveland. The big difference between the Cleveland and the Windsor -- and between the Cleveland and ALL small blocks -- is that it runs a splayed valve head, like Chevy had introduced in 1965 in the 396 big block. The splayed layout moves the valves closer to the center of the bore, allowing bigger valves. Whereas a hi po Windsor or small block Chevy head would have intake valves of 1.94" or 2.02" or at most

2.05", the "economy" 2-bbl version of the Cleveland had 2.05" and the 4-bbl had 2.1-something. So that's the biggest difference.

180 Out TS 28

Don't forget that the bore spacing remains constant as does head bolt location. Before the current onslought of aluminum performance heads, a well built 351 Clevor was a strong motor.

Heads can also be mixed, but cooling passage modifications have to be performed.

bradtx

FYI, A little history: Production of the 351C began with the 1970 model year and ended during the 1974 model year. To keep up with the market demand for engines in the 350 cubic inch class (which apparently Ford couldn't do with its production of the 351 Windsor alone), the 351M was developed.

Interestingly, the 351 Cleveland built such a strong performance reputation and market appeal that Ford referred to the 351M as a "351 Cleveland" in their own marketing literature for at least the first couple years after the 351M was introduced. Ultimately, this led to a lot of confusion, and even a mistaken belief among some pickup truck owners that their trucks had 351 Cleveland engines. In fact, the only trucks ever equipped with a 351 Cleveland engine by the factory were

1970-74 Rancheros, which shared the Torino's platform and power train options. Many auto models were available with the 351C engine including the Mustang, Cougar, Torino and Pantera.

The 351C was able to produce very good low-end torque and yet it could pump out serious horsepower all the way to 6,500 RPM. The 351C was light, powerful, extremely rugged, and got better gas mileage (in that era) than most other engines 2/3 it?s size. SAE Gross (aka Brake) horsepower ratings for the 351C 4V in 1970 are 300 HP @ 5400 RPM. Torque for the 351C 4V is 380 lb-ft @ 3400 RPM.

The 351 Cleveland belongs to Ford's 335 engine family. The 351C was based on the design of the 385-series big blocks, but it was smaller and lighter. The 351C features different heads for 2V & 4V versions. Cleveland 4V heads feature larger ports/valves than the Cleveland 2V heads. The Cleveland 4V heads also feature a closed or quench-type combustion chamber - 2V heads feature an open combustion chamber. The

351C 4V heads essentially descended from Boss 302 heads.

Now, some info related to differences between 351W and 351C:

The most significant difference between the 351W and the 351C is the heads. The Cleveland heads are what make this engine. Cleveland 4V heads feature HUGE canted valves - intake head diameter ~2.19, exhaust head diameter ~1.71. Valves this large are only possible via a canted valve arrangement, forming what Ford referred to as a "poly-angle" combustion chamber. A comparable 351W head features ~1.8" intake and ~1.5" exhaust valve head diameters.

Other differences are as follows:

Intake manifolds, camshafts and crankshafts are not interchangable between 351W and 351C.

351W 6-bolt valve covers Thermostat housing bolted to the front of the intake manifold (coolant passes through the intake manifold) 5/8" spark plugs Bolts securing fuel pump to block are horizontal in relationship to each other

351C

8 bolt valve covers Thermostat housing is on the block extension which contains the timing chain 14mm spark plugs Bolts securing fuel pump to block are vertical in relationship to each other

Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C 4V @

I like Clevelands because most others prefer the Windsor. The Cleveland was only produced for 3 or 4 years so it is truely a unique and nostalgic powerplant. Parts are available contrary to popular myth. On the down side, the Cleveland weighs more, the heads are sometimes prone to cracks, and the cylinder walls are thin.

DC

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:22:31 -0500, Grover C. McCoury III rearranged some electrons to form:

I think it's a stretch calling the Ranchero a "truck".

And, it shares no internal dimensions and very few parts with the 385 (429/460).

There are 5 different types of heads: 2V, 70-71 4V, 71 Boss 351, 71-74 CJ,

72-74 HO. The 71 Boss 351 heads are similar to the Boss 302 heads. From 72 on, all of the 4V heads were open chamber.

The 2V heads also have canted (albeit slightly smaller) valves.

Nor connecting rods.