Greedy Bastards.....

You're all over the map. Rationing? WTH are you talking about? This isn't 1942.

And this is how ford chooses to operate... IN A FREE MARKET!!! Ford is not THE market. It is a competitor in the market place.

Your first clue that you are wrong is in your above statement. We are all wrong and you are right? Is rationing your new buzz word? What was wrong with allotment? Do you expect Ford to market the GT500 like it does an F150?

You say there is no free market and I have thoroughly explained that there is. What is the side track? You do realize Ford operates in a free market here and has many competitors for all their makes and models? You think Toyota doesn't maximize profits too. I know the owner of three Toyota dealerships personally and I can confirm that he does. They all do it and it is done in a free market. No one dealer or automaker is the free market on there own. I just don't see what is so difficult in grasping this concept.

You realize you are part of the free market at work, don't you?

And Ford and its dealers don't constitute a free market on their own. They are one part of the overall free market system.

Straw man? What are you talking about now? Every time you get boxed into a corner you play the "straw man" card. The only straw man here is you claiming Ford and its dealers can, and should, operate as a free market internally.

You are once again assuming to know way more than you actually do. Neither of us know what combination of sales price and volume will maximize profits. I doubt Ford even knows it until the dust settles.

Ford has decided to sell X number of cars to the dealers for Y price. They can compute their profits based on these numbers. The dealers are now trying to maximize their profits by probing the market place with prices they think will fly based on the current demand. MSRP means nothing to a dealer right now for the GT500. It is what Ford has stated is their belief of the car's market value. This isn't based on the initial demand but over the entire year's production and anticipated total demand for the car. You make Ford out to be some evil corporation ripping off its customers when they are just like every other auto maker. I guess a reasonable profit is OK as long as it meets your idea of reasonable?

There you go again, assuming you know way more than you actually do. Where in this thread have I stated what you just claimed? I took enough economics courses in college to know the relationship between price, product quantity, demand and profit. Plus I have owned two businesses selling goods and services in a competitive market so I know a little about their combined effect on profits.

BTW, I was looking forward to your rationalization of how you maximizing your income shouldn't be considered an act of greed on your part. I thought it might give me some insight regarding why you think dealers are greedy for maximizing their profits and you, OTOH, are not when maximizing your income.

Allotments are a form of rationing. Dammit grow a clue.

Walmart, Kmart, and Target sell the same products. All these products have various list prices (MSRPs). In a free market they compete with each other. Why shouldn't BillyBob's Ford vs. dingleville Ford vs. Shelbyville AutoMall compete with each other?

We being you and the voices in your head?

Because when I used allotment you couldn't figure it out. So I used a term closer to the economic model being followed.

If they want to maximize profits.

You haven't shown anything of the sort.

The sidetrack is your insulting crap about not knowing I could choose a non-ford product.

You're not grasping it and are choosing to be insulting rather than figure it out. Another example: Circuit City and Best Buy compete selling Sony TVs. Sure you chould choose to buy one made by Sharp, but these retailers still compete to sell Sonys.

That's why the GT500 isn't a free market, but one with rationing (allotment). Billybob Ford isn't competing with Shelbyville AutoMall because of the rationing.

Toyota dealers don't compete with each other? If dealers aren't to compete with each other they should become owned by the manufacturer.

But it isn't your ideal free market setting the price of GT500s, because BMW and Chevy dealers will be competing with each other to sell the cars of interest they are selling. Meanwhile, Ford is playing allotments.

Dealerships are independently owned businesses. They compete with each other the same way Walmart and Target compete with each other selling colgate toothpaste and whole host of other identical products.

Your argument above would only make sense if they were owned by Ford.

The strawman being that I am not seeing the entire field. You keep harping on this and knocking it down and I am rather sick of it.

Have I stated that? I stated that they aren't operating as a free market with the _independently owned_ dealers. The dealerships are not internal to ford. They are not owned by ford. They are independent businesses and are free to stop selling fords and/or start selling chevys or Ladas or toyotas or whatever they want to. I've seen some interesting dealerships... like a Chevy and Mazda dealership. Same company sold Chevys and they sold Mazdas on the same property with the same salesmen. That's just like Best Buy selling Sony and Sharp TVs in the same isle. Dealers are _RETAILERS_ They are not owned or operated by the manufacturer. Manufacturers try to control retailers as I am sure you'll be quick to point out, have little control over dealer pricing.

Because the supply of product is not following free market principles, the retailers can charge more for it due to the artifical scaricity created by not following a free market system but rather using a rationing system.

I didn't assume anything. MSRP is where the manufacture _THINKS_ maximium profit point is. It's clear you aren't reading what I write at all, but skimming a few words and inserting what you wished I had written instead.

I haven't done any such thing. Here you go again making up strawmen.

Made no such argument. Why don't you go f*ck yourself? Seriously, I grow tired of this continual line of shit from you. You just make up one thing after another to force me to deal with these stupid tangents.

You've stated that clearly several times.

Then act like it.

You've sounded like some who feels happy screwing customers so long as they don't realize it right away because that's maximum profit per unit.

I'm sorry, I am not falling for your side distractions and easy to knock down strawmen. The fact remains, GT500 pricing is _NOT_ the result of a free market situation of supply. It's a result of rationed supply.

If my 'raise' is too much, free market allows them to hire another engineer and fire me. There isn't an allotment of engineers to chicago, they can encourage someone from WI or even China to come in and work for less. Now if there were an allotment of engineers for the Chicago area, my price would skyrocket because there would likely be too few of us here, but too many in Montana. But that wouldn't be a free market, now would it?

For instance, say that lumber is needed more in one area of the country. Lumber prices there will increase and product will be diverted to that area as lumber mills try to maximize their profits by diverting from other regional markets. This would stablize and bring down prices in the region of high demand. But lets say lumber mills stayed true to a distribution scheme and that area got what they were set to get and not a bit more. Prices would sky rocket for lumber in that area of the nation. Going higher and higher and not stablizing because product isn't being sent to try and satisify demand. That's what happens under allotment/rationing schemes. This ration, not a bit more or less. Lumber sits unsold in Chicago but meanwhile in New Orleans housing repair costs skyrocket for a lack of lumber. That's how allotment markets work, sky high prices where the allotment isn't enough. Sure, lumber dealers in New Orleans maximize their profit per unit, but are they really maximizing their overall profit? How about the mills?

Now exactly how is Ford delivering more GT500s to meet demand and maximize it's profits? It's not. It's sticking to an allotment scheme and prices are skyrocketing at the retailer. It's the direct opposite of a free market where Ford would be encouraged to build more and deliver them to where they are selling. It's system of rewarding dealerships is causing it to act _NOT_ to maximize it's profits.

You might be a democrat.

This is EXACTLY the definition of a 'free market'.

You DONT need it, you dont buy it! The GT 500 is every bit as much a luxury item as a Jag or a 22 foot pleasure boat.

It wouldnt exist AT ALL if it werent for the base model which is sold on a competitve basis... but Central Planning/Price control wonks would say the BASE model was frivolous and we all should drive fiats and trabants. And pay the same price as a base Mustang for them.

ooh.. political labels.

I'm glad you don't understand the concept of retailer competition either.

I don't need a car at all. But if I am to buy a car I expect retailers to _compete_ with each other in a free market situation. How exactly does the ford allotment scheme encourage retailers to compete with one another?

Why don't you read the above that you wrote back to yourself. You just agreed with me. The base model is sold on a cometitive basis, but the GT500 is sold on an allotment/rationed basis. The former is a free market situation, the later is central planing rationing out product.

Meanwhile continue to lose yourself in the idiotic tangent.

Look, your head is full of concrete on this matter so let's just agree to disagree and move on.

In other words, you finally figured it out...

I dont believe YOUR logic...the cars are allocated to those dealers which have done well in sales. they are a limited edition.

And it ISNT a sales contest for those particular models. The dealer has to pay interest on those cars so they have made a financial decision about cost-benefit on holding them vs selling to the highest bidder.

Which brings to mind, really, how they are sold. It's like a silent auction where the holder waits for a sale, while the car actually serves to bring in lookers and potential buyers. Perhaps increased GT and lesser version sales makes up for the interest they're paying on the lot- queens?

Funny that yours and my logic on the OTHER thread on costs and common parts is the same yet I'm the idiot on here.

Here's something else to think about that is a little similar. Say you live in a housing development that has many similar houses. But you have done many upgrades and remodeling. so you decide to put it on the market.

Your Realtor balks at your asking price, saying that none on the other houses in the plat sell for that... do you hold out or listen to the realtor?

I held out on the time I did that, and the house sold in two hours, before she even got the sign up, two offers and we had to take the first... I was so mad at the realtor I asked her to pay the points. She did.

My son had the same thing recently, but he went with the realtor who was also his friend... the house sold to the first looker.. probably could have gotten 10,000 more for it.

Scarcity and desire dictate the price but that isnt ALL there is to it!

think about you selling an exceptional used car.. do you lower your price because it's higher than the book, and the looker insists on it?

ok smart guy... you splain how independently owned ford dealers aren't supposed to compete with one another.

I see, you fell for the marketing bullshit. Now I understand why you two think it's ok... because you bought the instant collectable marketing! It's a car. A production car. It's not a one off boyd custom. It's not the work of Chip Foose. It's a ford that rolled off the assembly line with thousands of similiar fords. The marketeers want to make you think it's _special_ but it's just another new car. Only with the passage of time will it be determined to be special.

So it's a sale of rare artworks? It's another production car. It's only special in your head because you bought the marketing line.

Didn't say they didn't. Under the allotment scheme they don't have to worry about _free market competition_ from other retailers.

I didn't call you an idiot... I called the 'well buy a BMW' tangent idiotic.

Apples and oranges. Another useless tangent since none of the cars in the discussion have been modified beyond their factory equipment.

I'll explain it to you again.... The allocation is what causes the scarcity. A dealer can sell as many F150s as he wants or can sell. A dealer can only sell as many GT500s as he's been allocated. This fundamentally changes the nature of competition between dealers on the GT500 vs. the F150.

The F150 is sold under free market conditions. BillyBob Ford tries to undercut Shelbyville Ford to sell more volume and vice versa. Customers compare to see who offers the better deal. If Billybob Ford is selling the same F150 for $300 more, customers start buying from Shelbyville Ford. Shelbyville Ford makes up for making $300 less per unit by selling far more units.

Now, on the GT500, shelbyville and Billybob each get 2 units. There are

50 people interested in that model at MSRP. What's the point of competing? A condition of articial scarcity now exists because no GT500s will be diverted in from other markets to satisify the demand.

The allocation is _fixed_. Ford could make more, but the allocation scheme is what it is and there are only going to be 4 for the area. Price skyrockets because there is a lack of free market forces to move to satisify demand. Shelbyville ford might think, I can sell 50 of these cars at sticker and make more money... but he can't sell 50 of them because they are allocated. So the price is raised until only 4 people remain interested. Of course there are 2 that went for sticker out in bumbleville but that's because only 2 people in bumbleville were interested....

Think about it... has there been any article of a limiting part or a part that was difficult and slow to make on the GT500? Has a disaster taken out the plant that makes the engine? I don't recall one. It's various ford and other vendor production parts put together in one package. It's the allotment scheme that creates the scaricty. It's artifical. There isn't any free market competition between retailers on it.

You accept it because you want to see the car as 'special'. I see it as another production car. I don't go gagga over the shelby name or whatever marketing angle that's being promoted. It's just another production car. Maybe in 30 years time it will be special or maybe just junk like so many other cars.

For all we know it could end up like this marketing excerise of the

1970s:

A whole 400 were made... at it wasn't even just another production ford but a low volume custom sold at only one dealership!

Again... apples and ornages.

Yeah, I did....... the part about your head being full of concrete.

I see the "allotment scheme" as a step in the right direction. It more evenly distributes the vehicles between dealers. The previous "SVT dealership" arrangement really was the more restrictive marketing mechanism. If you weren't an SVT dealer, you didn't sell a Cobra, period.

As far as the scarcity issue, I'm not seeing it. If they are scarce in your area, it only means someone wanted one bad enough to pay the asking price. I've seen several in area showrooms, they're still there. As more ship, the supply goes up and the dealers sweat a little more. Who's gonna blink first,... which dealer will get stuck with the hot potato. :)

By MY end the '03 &'04 Cobra could be had for $10k _below_ list. If Ford produces anywhere near the 5-7k units they have alluded to, it will all balance out perfectly. Ford could sell every unit, _without_ having to discount heavily. It's good business, IMO. The "monkey-wrench" in the works are the folks who just need to be the first to have one, and will pay through the nose to do so.

Here in the Boston area, the salt will be flying soon and most of the area buyers for these cars will lose interest. Come springtime, I'm checking out the Challenger, the clock is ticking for the Ford dealers and they are well aware of it.

That's fine so long as we don't pretend that it's a free market like any other product that is distributed where ever it's selling.

That's just not true. Lots of people need transportation and most people (outside these kinds of newsgroups) really don't care all that much what they drive, they just need wheels and want something "nice" that they can afford. As disposable income rises then "wants" play more of a role in addition to "needs".

and play the

Well duh. Of course there are things that are manipulated markets. Every hear of diamonds? Again, something with no real need that people buy because they can afford to, not because they "need" them.

Another way of looking at it is "commodities" versus "specialty items". It can be pretty hard to manipulate a commodities market, not that people don't try. But a specialty market is ripe for manipulation. Why do you suppose you don't see gvt agencies buying GT

500's and about the only place you see Hummers in routine law enforcement is on TV?

You sure do get your panties in a bunch easily.

Of course. Most people look out for their own selfish motives. We see it in this thread where people complain about the cost of a GT500 because it's more then THEY wish to pay and they are looking for an angle to get the price down.

How do you know that in the absence of the "manipulated market" for the occasional ford specialty car there would even be a ford specialty car? If the dealers didn't make a bundle on them would they be willing to get their mechanics trained to work on them or to keep parts in stock for them? These things don't all exist in a vacuum.

It's a free market. The buyers and sellers determine the price. Doesn't get more basic then that. You don't like the price then don't buy it, there are plenty of other cars selling for less.

Horses, boats, trains, buses, bicycles, walking, living closer, lots of options...

Good, then let's not pretend it's an ideal free market.

Specialty car? What's that... oooh that's right a marketing term. A escort hatch back is a specialty car if you think about it the right way.

All you're coming up with is ways you justify the additional profit for yourself. That doesn't change my objection, which had to with trying to justify it as being the product of ideal free market forces. You obviously agree with me there, so there is no point to the rest. Justify it in your head any way you wish.

And in the last two posts you agreed this wasn't do to ideal free market situation. Of course buyers and sellers determine the price... they do in the least free of markets as well. How close or far from the ideal it is determines where that price will be however.