Mustang Kicks GTO Butt

Score for the Mustang!

Reply to
NoOption5L
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I'm confused. First, where's the '05 Stang's quarter mile time? All I see is that the '05 GTO was "three-tenths-quicker" than the Stang, and that the '05 GTO turned in a 13.75 @ 104.1. Second, it says the 20 ci smaller, 50 hp weaker '04 ran a 13.82 @ 103.0. 50 hp is worth only 1 mph? 100 hp more than the Mustang is worth only 7 tenths? There's something wrong with both numbers.

Anyway, I don't know the source of this article, but I say anyone who prefers a 300 hp 281 to a 400 hp 364 is nuts. This "value" thing -- give it a rest. I just can't believe the apathy of all the old school gearheads for a 400 hp car. Hemi Cudas, that wish they actually put out 400 hp, are going for six figures all day long. I mean, if that's the value of a 400 hp bone stock car in today's marketplace, then it's the GTO that is an incredible bargain. And with a few mods, a little boost, forget about it.

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Reply to
one80out

In the same car ? sure. in a different car it's a whole different story and that's what the article is all about. It shows that the mustang, even though it has less power, will kick the GTO's ass in a road race. On the drag-strip, sure, it's all about power and how it's planted to the pavement (which the mustang is better at, solid axle !)

a bargain ? sure, if you're just into hp and dont' care about handling or body style. Gm has to face the music. The current GTO is a failure.

Reply to
RT

The article lets you do the math for yourself. The GTO with 1.4more liters and 100 more hp was 0-60 in 5.15sec, 13.75sec 1/4mile. The Stang was .25 slower 0-60 that is 5.4. The Stang was also three tenths slower 1/4 mile henceforth 14.05. As far as the GTO being slightly quicker then the previous year perhaps the larger 6L motor is heavier then the previous 5.7 or maybe they had to change gearing or something else that gobbled up the extra 50hp. Again with 100 hp more then the Stang it is only .3 seconds quicker then the Stang not 7 tenths not sure were that came from. Remember the Mustang weighs much less then the GTO (over 200lbs less) and speed is based on more factors then hp and weight such as gearing for instance. Source of article. It mentions around the One Autoweek Tower so I imagine this is an Autoweek article. :) Now other factors to consider that make one choose a car with less hp over another. First off it clearly indicated that the GTO is an Aussie made car the Mustang American, asking an American consumer that means a whole lot. Right now you are basing your decision on a hp or cubes for that matter. How about handling, breaking, price, style? Also aftermarket accessories. The potential of the Mustang alone is worth more then shoving a

6L into a car that looks like a Pontiac Sunbird.

Oh keep in mind the '04 Cobra had whopping better times then the GTO with a

0-60 of 4.85sec 1/4 mile while not listed have been noted well in the 12's. I would imagine the GTO is more lined up for a Cobra rather then a GT.

-Nick

Reply to
Nicholas D

'05 GTO: wt: 3787; gear: 3.46:1; '04 GTO: wt: 3821; gear: 3.46:1. So the gear is the same and the weight is less (although a mere 34 lb diff may be accounted for by the weight of gas, the test driver, etc.)

These numbers are from the side by side test of '05 GTO vs. '05 Mustang in January '05 Car and Driver

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the December 2003 test of the '04 GTO
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C&

C&D also got a 5 mph trap speed improvement from the additional 50 '05 horses, and the '045 was 0.7 seconds quicker in the quarter. These numbers make sense. The Autoweek numbers don't.

Here are all the vital stats from the C&D stories:

'04 GTO:

0-60: 5.3. 1/4 mile: 14.0 @ 102; 346 ci; 350 hp @ 5200; 365 lb-ft @ 4000; wt: 3821; gear: 3.46:1

'05 GTO:

0-60: 4.8; 1/4 mile: 13.1 @ 107; 364 ci; 400 hp @ 6600; 400 lb-ft @ 4400; wt: 3787; gear: 3.46:1

'05 Mustang GT:

0-60: 4.8; 1/4 mile: 13.8 @ 103; 281 ci; 300 hp @ 5750; 320 lb-ft @ 4500; wt: 3575; gear: 3.55:1

I got my wires crossed between Autoweek's numbers showing the '05 GTO being seven tenths quicker than the '04 GTO, and three tenths quicker than the '05 Stang. I meant to type "3" but it came out "7". For the GTO to beat the Stang by seven tenths would be OK (e.g., see the C&D numbers); three tenths from a car that's only 200 lbs heavier and 100 hp stronger and I say something's wrong.

Handling and braking: From the C&D comparo:

'05 GTO: wt ft/r %: 53.8/46.2; strut, coils, sway bar; IRS, coils, sway bar; 300 ft skid pad g: .88; vented discs/vented discs; 70-0: 167 ft; '05 Stang: wt ft/r %: 52.5/47.5; strut, coils, sway bar; IRS, coils, sway bar; 300 ft skid pad g: .89; vented discs/solid discs; 70-0: 170 ft.

Potential for mods is where the GTO leaves the Stand far in the dust. First, it comes with IRS and an utterly bullet-proof 6-spd, while the Stang comes with a solid axle that will NEVER equal IRS in street handling, and the latest update of the failure-prone T-5. So the same aftermarket handling improvements to both will still leave the Stang behind.

And as far as the engines, well that was my point to begin with, that a

364 ci LS2 (that means with the GOOD LS6-style heads and the ability to pop it out to 400+ ci no problem) kills the GT mod motor off the assembly line, and with a few mods will kill the GT, the Cobra, AND the GT500 too. There is no replacement for displacement. Already there's a Vortech blower/intercooler kit for the '04 GTO
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: 481hp and 435 lb-ft @ 7-8 psi. That's with a stock baseline of 350 hp,365 lb-ft. Adding the same percentage increases to an '05 puts you at550 hp, 477 lb-ft.

Finally, as far as "value," the '05 GTO is already selling at or below list price. The '05 Stang is barely there. With added dealer profit of $5000+ the Stang GT verts are going for thousands MORE than the GTO. There's also the collectibility factor. I predict the GTO will be the Hemi Cuda of 2030, and the '05 Stang will be the '65 with the 289-2v. As in $1 mil for a perfect low miler, vs. $20,000. Remember, no one bought the Hemis when they were new either.

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Reply to
one80out

'05 GTO: wt: 3787; gear: 3.46:1; '04 GTO: wt: 3821; gear: 3.46:1. So the gear is the same and the weight is less (although a mere 34 lb diff may be accounted for by the weight of gas, the test driver, etc.)

These numbers are from the side by side test of '05 GTO vs. '05 Mustang in January '05 Car and Driver

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the December 2003 test of the '04 GTO
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C&

C&D also got a 5 mph trap speed improvement from the additional 50 '05 horses, and the '045 was 0.7 seconds quicker in the quarter. These numbers make sense. The Autoweek numbers don't.

Here are all the vital stats from the C&D stories:

'04 GTO:

0-60: 5.3. 1/4 mile: 14.0 @ 102; 346 ci; 350 hp @ 5200; 365 lb-ft @ 4000; wt: 3821; gear: 3.46:1

'05 GTO:

0-60: 4.8; 1/4 mile: 13.1 @ 107; 364 ci; 400 hp @ 6600; 400 lb-ft @ 4400; wt: 3787; gear: 3.46:1

'05 Mustang GT:

0-60: 4.8; 1/4 mile: 13.8 @ 103; 281 ci; 300 hp @ 5750; 320 lb-ft @ 4500; wt: 3575; gear: 3.55:1

I got my wires crossed between Autoweek's numbers showing the '05 GTO being seven tenths quicker than the '04 GTO, and three tenths quicker than the '05 Stang. I meant to type "3" but it came out "7". For the GTO to beat the Stang by seven tenths would be OK (e.g., see the C&D numbers); three tenths from a car that's only 200 lbs heavier and 100 hp stronger and I say something's wrong.

Handling and braking: From the C&D comparo:

'05 GTO: wt ft/r %: 53.8/46.2; strut, coils, sway bar; IRS, coils, sway bar; 300 ft skid pad g: .88; vented discs/vented discs; 70-0: 167 ft; '05 Stang: wt ft/r %: 52.5/47.5; strut, coils, sway bar; IRS, coils, sway bar; 300 ft skid pad g: .89; vented discs/solid discs; 70-0: 170 ft.

Potential for mods is where the GTO leaves the Stand far in the dust. First, it comes with IRS and an utterly bullet-proof 6-spd, while the Stang comes with a solid axle that will NEVER equal IRS in street handling, and the latest update of the failure-prone T-5. So the same aftermarket handling improvements to both will still leave the Stang behind.

And as far as the engines, well that was my point to begin with, that a

364 ci LS2 (that means with the GOOD LS6-style heads and the ability to pop it out to 400+ ci no problem) kills the GT mod motor off the assembly line, and with a few mods will kill the GT, the Cobra, AND the GT500 too. There is no replacement for displacement. Already there's a Vortech blower/intercooler kit for the '04 GTO
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: 481hp and 435 lb-ft @ 7-8 psi. That's with a stock baseline of 350 hp,365 lb-ft. Adding the same percentage increases to an '05 puts you at550 hp, 477 lb-ft.

Finally, as far as "value," the '05 GTO is already selling at or below list price. The '05 Stang is barely there. With added dealer profit of $5000+ the Stang GT verts are going for thousands MORE than the GTO. There's also the collectibility factor. I predict the GTO will be the Hemi Cuda of 2030, and the '05 Stang will be the '65 with the 289-2v. As in $1 mil for a perfect low miler, vs. $20,000. Remember, no one bought the Hemis when they were new either.

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Reply to
one80out

This should be "C&D also got a 5 mph trap speed improvement over the '04 GTO from the additional 50 '05 horses, and the '05 GTO was 0.7 seconds quicker in the quarter than the '05 Mustang GT. These numbers make sense. =A0The Autoweek numbers don't."

Haste makes waste.

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Reply to
one80out

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

Except for the value/collectibility thing, I agree 100%. The LS motor coupled with the 6-speed and IRS is killer. With that combo I can easily forgive its looks.

Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC

Reply to
Joe

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and the December 2003 test of the '04 GTO>

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. C&

To be fair we must also conclude this. The GTO is more in line with the Cobra or so it should be. If there was a retro Lemans this would be more suitable to compare with the run of the mill Mustang/ GT. Here we can see both cars IRS with 6 speeds too. The Cobra out handled and performed the GTO '04 when they were both produced. There are many comparisons that were done in '04 with the GTO Cobra. For instance:

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Wait till the Cobra makes its come back by the end of the year to have a fairer comparison although IMO the regular GT does a hell of a job! Motortrend has an interesting article on the GTO of '04 mentioning the Cobra as well.
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If you go on over all car the fox platform with its 25 year old chassis really was needing a replacement. The performance stats in a fair comparison was Cobra 0-60 4.8 13.0 1/4mile @ 110.7 mph to GTO 0-60 5.3 13.62 1/4 mile @ 104.78 mph.

Motortrend also list the '05 Stang as 0-60 5.1 1/4 mile 13.6.

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Not bad for 100 less hp and if you went to look for sticker prices you could easily afford an aftermarket Supercharger to play catch up. MSRP for a Premium GT is $26,125. GTO is $32.295. Compliments of
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I have to disagree with your presumption of this very new motor having a huge aftermarket parts source. It even took the 4.6 a bit of time to catch on with production figures probably 10 times greater then the GTO or Vette possibly combined. You mention little mods making it go better then the Stang. The introduction of a Whipple Supercharger should make the Mustang over 500hp with a mere 4.6L imagine the 5.4L with one.

How many Mustang GT's are produced a year? How many GTO's? How many Cobras (past or expected present)? Other considerable deciding factors for most are which comes in convertible? Which has an automatic? Which has more parts available to include aftermarket? Which is made in America?

I've always had love for Pontiac. I used to love cruising with my '68 Lemans convertible with sidepipes I ordered from JC Whitney when I was a poor H.S. student. What a beat up project car that was but it turned heads wearing primer grey lol. Wish I could have restored it. Sold it to help goto College wonder if it's worth it looking back lol. I also have a love for the Trans Am and its killer looks. Thats one thing that I miss with this GTO, it has the looks of a Sunbird, nice interior but much left to desire. The Mustang was and seems to always be my true love. It allows us to create our own image at an affordable price. It created the tuner car market. The '05's looks are incredible. The interior is growing on me. When I went to the NY Auto show I had the pleasure to speak to a rep who said they are going to bring back as many of the classic names and styles as possible. This includes the California Special, Shelby, Saleen, Mach I, and so forth. Talks are going on with the late Mr. Shinoda's wife for use of the Boss nameplate and possibly a newer ASC Mclaren might be on the horizon. I am very happy with the direction of the Stang and hope it brings back the other pony cars like the Camaro and Trans Am. It's nice to see Hemi's around again too. Here's to a brighter future!

-Nicholas

Reply to
Nicholas D

R&T showed the MSRP of the '04 Cobra to be $35,895, and the GTO to be $33,190 -- a $2,704 diff in favor of the GTO . That's about halfway to that 481 hp, 435 lb-ft, Vortech supercharger kit. The other half you could get from the fact that the '04 GTO was heavily discounted, while the '04 Cobra never was. Yet R&T chose the GTO over the Cobra, by

588.1 total points to 574.4. How much higher would the GTO have scored if it had been packing the extra 50 hp, 35 lb-ft, 18 ci, and better cylinder heads of the '05?

So when comparing either the '04 or '05 GTO to the '04 Cobra, at least according to R&T the "value" shoe is on the other foot.

I mis-typed the '05 Mustang GT's 0-60 as recorded by C&D. It was 5.1 secs, not 4.8. The '05 GTO was 4.8. Also, I copied and pasted the GTO's "strut, coils, sway bar; IRS, coils, sway bar" to the Mustang and didn't change it to "strut, coils, sway bar; solid axle, coils, sway bar."

Although Chevy is calling the 6.0 LS2 the "4th gen" SBC, it's really not a lot different than the LS1 that's been out since the 1997 model year. The "3rd gen" is also used extensively in GM trucks and SUV's (and ironically these engines run the LS6-style heads that the '04 GTO lacked). There are lots of speed parts out already -- cams, intakes, valvetrain upgrades, stroker cranks, blowers -- and with hundreds of thousands of Gen 3/Gen 4's on the road there is an ever-growing market for more.

Bottom line is, I am very uncomfortable with being the designated GTO spokesmodel in this thread comparing it to the '05 Stang. I love the new Stang, and I am as tempted to buy one as I have ever been in a lifetime of buying used only. But I like the GTO better. The bland styling -- which is the most often heard complaint -- is actually a plus to me.

And really, the reason I jumped into this thread is no one who imagines him/herself to be any kind of an enthusiast should EVER look down on anything with 400 hp. When I see all the genuflecting going on toward old heaps from the '60's that only dreamed of 300 hp, much less an honest 400 net hp, it bugs me to see the GTO so disrespected by the same crowd. There are VERY FEW muscle cars that could do a 13.1 @ 107 bone stock. Just Google up one of those "50 Fastest Muscle Car" compilations and see what I mean. In fact, I just did, and here are the TOP TEN:

1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20@118 427 8V 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/65 2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8@112 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.36 CD 11/65 3 1969 Road Runner 12.91@111.8 440 Six BBL 390 4-Speed 4.10 SS 6/69 4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10@107.12 426 Hemi 425 4-Speed 3.54 CC 11/69 5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12@107.01 454 LS6 450 4-Speed 3.55 CC 11/69 6 1969 Camaro 13.16@110.21 427 ZL1 430 4-Speed 4.10 HC 6/69 7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68 8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 425 automatic 4.10 SS 12/69 9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 360 automatic 3.64 MT 1/70 10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 427 425 4-Speed 3.55 CD 6/68

ONLY 5-6 EVER THAT COULD RUN WITH A BOX STOCK '05 GTO!!! And just try to buy a '66 427 Shelby Cobra or a '69 ZL-1 Camaro, or any of these cars, for $32,295.

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Reply to
one80out

Just an FYI. It may be a geographical anomaly, but here in the northeast the '04 Cobra was indeed heavily discounted. At summers end the $40k anniversary convertibles were selling for as low as $30k. The amply produced '03 Cobra really dragged down the asking price of the late season '04s.

Saturday I saw an '04 GTO on a lot with "The Wild Bore" "$21,999." scrawled on the windshield. I don't know if the salesman is a genius....or disgruntled, but it got my attention. :) If you can get past the looks, it's a heck of a car for short money.

Reply to
John C.

On 19 Apr 2005 18:20:35 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote something wonderfully witty:

My Memory is a tad faded, but my `72 455 HO SD GTO ran 13.xx stock out of the box at DelMarVa in the middle 70's with about 33k on the clock. I want to say 13.47 on the tires of the day, but I can't adamant about the .47 part, only the 13. part. Of all the cars I've owned and sold, it is the only one I truly and dearly want back.

Reply to
ZombyWoof

I think because of the "@" in the ET's of my copy and paste of the "50 Fastest Muscle Cars," that Google Groups deleted the most important part, the ET's. So here they are again, with spaces on either side of the "@":

1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20 @ 118 2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8 @ 112 3 1969 Road Runner 12.91 @ 111.8 440-6v 4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10 @ 107.12 5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12 @ 107.01 LS6 6 1969 Camaro 13.16 @ 110.21 427 ZL1 7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68 8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 (?)

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I don't think there were any Super Duty's in '72; '73-'74 only. But anyway, a 13.47 is really quick.

Keep in mind, when talking about 13-second cars, that a few tenths difference in ET may not sound like much, but it really shows up at the top end. Assuming a 100-105 mph trap speed, a pair of 13-second cars are traveling at 147-155 ft/sec. So the .4 sec diff between a 13.5 and a 13.1 is 58-62 ft, or 3-4 car lengths.

About the SD455, I got this from a quick Google:

"1973 saw some significant new changes to the Firebirds. . . . The first was the introduction of a new Super Duty 455 V8 (SD-455). . . . [T]he Super Duty 455 was a street legal race prepped engine. . . . Pontiac rated the SD-455 engines at a stout 310 bhp and 390 lb-ft, but experts agreed that it was closer to 370 bhp. . . . Unfortunately, Super Duty engines were expensive and therefore rare; only 252 Trans Am's and 43 Formula 455's received the SD-455 engine."

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The same page says 943 more SD's were produced in '74. So total production was only 1,238. Then, as now, people didn't buy real performance in as great of numbers as you might expect.

The same page also cites a 13.5 @ 104 for a '74 SD.

A '74 SD 455 also appears as number 15 in the same "50 Fastest Muscle Cars" chart as I've previously quoted:

15 1973 Trans Am 13.54 @ 104.29 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73 180 Out
Reply to
one80out

I think because of the "@" in the ET's of my copy and paste of the "50 Fastest Muscle Cars," that Google Groups deleted the most important part, the ET's. So here they are again, with spaces on either side of the "@":

1 1966 427 Cobra 12.20 @ 118 2 1966 Corvette 427 12.8 @ 112 3 1969 Road Runner 12.91 @ 111.8 440-6v 4 1970 Hemi Cuda 13.10 @ 107.12 5 1970 Chevelle SS454 13.12 @ 107.01 LS6 6 1969 Camaro 13.16 @ 110.21 427 ZL1 7 1968 Corvette 13.30@108 427 6V 435 4-Speed 3.70 HC 5/68 8 1970 Road Runner 13.34@107.5 426 Hemi 9 1970 Buick GS Stage I 13.38@105.5 455 Stage I 10 1968 Corvette 427 13.41@109.5 L72 (?)

formatting link

I don't think there were any Super Duty's in '72; '73-'74 only. But anyway, a 13.47 is really quick.

Keep in mind, when talking about 13-second cars, that a few tenths difference in ET may not sound like much, but it really shows up at the top end. Assuming a 100-105 mph trap speed, a pair of 13-second cars are traveling at 147-155 ft/sec. So the .4 sec diff between a 13.5 and a 13.1 is 58-62 ft, or 3-4 car lengths.

About the SD455, I got this from a quick Google:

"1973 saw some significant new changes to the Firebirds. . . . The first was the introduction of a new Super Duty 455 V8 (SD-455). . . . [T]he Super Duty 455 was a street legal race prepped engine. . . . Pontiac rated the SD-455 engines at a stout 310 bhp and 390 lb-ft, but experts agreed that it was closer to 370 bhp. . . . Unfortunately, Super Duty engines were expensive and therefore rare; only 252 Trans Am's and 43 Formula 455's received the SD-455 engine."

formatting link
The same page says 943 more SD's were produced in '74. So total production was only 1,238. Then, as now, people didn't buy real performance in as great of numbers as you might expect.

The same page also cites a 13.5 @ 104 for a '74 SD.

A '74 SD 455 also appears as number 15 in the same "50 Fastest Muscle Cars" chart as I've previously quoted:

15 1973 Trans Am 13.54 @ 104.29 455 SD 310 automatic 3.42 HR 6/73 180 Out
Reply to
one80out

You know the funny thing? Whenever they do these comparisons, they put in only late 1960-1970s vehicles when in reality, the fastest muscle cars existed in the mid-1960s. Thunderbolt Fords and those ugly Chryslers that could whip off 1/4s in consistently low to mid 11's. The only cars to better them where the specialty vehicles like the late 1960s Hemi Darts and Barracudas that could drop into the 10's in stock form.

-Rich

Reply to
RichA

uh, there's irs and there's irs. I think the 05 stang gt was able to outhandle the 04 cobra on a street course. solid axle vs irs. It's all about the implementation. The 03/04 cobra implementation of irs wasn't great, but the gto's isn't all that great either.

I liked your comments upto here. if we start throwing in aftermarket stuff you can compare all you want, the outcome will be different. Let's stick to stock for now.

see above. If you replace the Gt500's blower with a KB (am sure they'll come out with one by the time the fr500 is on the street) it will blow the GTO away... heck, a pulley swap, chip mod and some other cheap mods will blow the GTO away, and a lot cheaper also. See what I mean ? I can keep reasoning here.

nah, nobody wants the GTO now.. it's a Monaro with a different engine. Lots of Monaro's in Ausie land.

Reply to
RT

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