I took my Mach-1 out the other day. The roads were dry, no apparent contamination. I'm going along at a fair clip and shift from
3-4 WITH traction control engaged and my rear wheels break loose big time! Salt isn't just a corrosive that destroys cars, it's a dangerous substance when dry because it acts like graphite. I wonder if anyone has ever done any investigations into the liability of dry salt when it comes to accidents. Traction is radically lower when it's on the road, even in a thin, thin, layer.
Lessee... when you're up on two wheels, a guy tends to take it real easy until AFTER the springs first real good rainstorm.
S'funny... after the snow is gone, there's usually an abundance of sand and salt left behind... happens every year. Just like the first good snow of the year, it doesn't "cause" accidents..... it just separates the wienies from thinking folk...
Even when taking it easy though it can still cause the tires to break loose, Jim. I think Rich was just giving a warning to those who maybe didn't know. Don't need to give him hell =(. *jabs Rich* ya bitch. jk.
-Mike
-- A happy kid behind the wheel of a 98 Mustang GT Cold air intake FRPP 3.73 gears Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter Flowmaster 40 Series mufflers (self-installed woohoo) Hi-speed fan switch
Don't you folks down south put sand on the shuffleboard courts to lower friction. Same idea. You could use salt or sugar but both dissolve eventually and the sugar will definitely increase the friction and an invasions of ants later ;^) The fact that up here in the great white north they put both sand and salt down often seems to add up to some slippery driving even without the ice. Winter is far from over here, there's an ocean of salt and grit going down on the roads in Ontario for the next two months yet and any Ontario driver whose tearing around thinking it's not slippery just because it's dry is living in a fools paradise. Lets complain about insurance now..... StuK
Tearing around? You seemed to have missed the point; If you drive NORMALLY you're handling is still compromised. There is less grip than driving in rain.
There's a generation gap thing, too.... there are those of us that will blame our indescretions right where the blame belongs (on our own shoulders)... other may choose to find some way to deflect the blame onto some outside agency. If we do something like strike our tires, we have obviously done something that the prevailing condtions can't support. Since the condition (crap on the road or whatever) is pre-existing, it it our action that has caused the concern.
The fact that there is loose sand and salt on a road during a thaw should be no mystery to those that live where this happens..... it's been like that since the advent of sand trucks.....
Don't forget about the salt haze either. Take one heavily salted road, the more/faster traffic the better. Add a nice frigid sunny day so that the road is dry. Stir in calm winds. Thus observe the salty haze thats in the air over that highway. Particularly viewable if the sun is low and aimed down the highway. I've always thought (but I have no proof) that those suspended salt particles infiltrate the interior spaces of your vehicles body over time, particularly areas that don't see the standard road salt/slush/water exposure. Any body shop techs out there who might know? Do any cars live that long here (Minnesota) to witness such an effect.
I appreciate your observation and that you shared it with all of us. It is true, it is something to be aware of, and it can be ... uh, startling.
But.
Why do people tailgate on snowy days? Or in the rain? Why do I have to keep stopping to push other people's cars when they've gotten stuck? Why do drivers insist on sticking their noses into just-invented traffic patterns, thinking to cut off one or two cars, yet resulting in gridlock?
People who live in regions where salt and sand is used should KNOW that they're going to come across the occasional slippery spot. (Ride a motorcycle, if you want to explore the range of emotions that sudden loss of traction can inspire.) Fact is, if you're driving responsibly, as you say you were, you will probably slide a bit every once in a while. Rarely will this result in an offroad experience, and it's probably not all that life-threatening. It's just a fact of winter life.
It's also one more way to cull the pure idiots out of the herd.
"dwight" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@individual.net:
Because they're idiots.
See above.
Because you're either too nice of a guy or you're an idiot. ;)
See answer # 1.
You'd think, eh? But no - they're idiots.
There are more and more every day. Idiots, that is.
The real problem is that most people take driving for granted. Few people realize that they're piloting a machine that can _very_ easily kill them and/or someone else.
Here was my wake-up call: My 16-year old son now has his full-fledged driver's license, and he's going for the 'SteerClear' insurance discount. The program requires that he write down different things about each trip he takes, and it also requires that a passenger (i.e., me) write down things about the driver.
As the passenger who's fully aware of how the driver should be driving, it's made me aware of all the "shortcuts" that I (and lots of others) take while driving.
How many "rolling stops" do you make each day? How many times do you go "only a few mph" over the speed limit? How many times do you blow through yellows-just-turned-red? How much do you ignore your driving because you're distracted? Etc.
The above examples are things that beginning drivers are taught not to do, but we "experienced" drivers do them all the time. If we all stopped being complacent and drove like we were good beginners, a helluva lot of accidents (and deaths) would be eliminated. Just a few more cents.
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
As for me "missing the point" I'm not sure there was point to the original post, however. The real "point" is to drive appropriately to the conditions present. I will however concede that the post was at least didactic to those who haven't endured salt except possibly on their fries or at the beach in the surf. ;^) StuK
Salt is not loose, it's not in form of little pieces, as it is when they first distribute it. It's a coating that has very little depth, colours the road white. But, in some places, you don't even see it. The road appears dry. Case in point; I'm going on an on-ramp and my back end literally breaks loose on what appears to be a clean, dry road. No indication of any problem, but traction was down by (how do you rate it?) at least 50%, meaning that the speed supported in a turn is now 50% less than before.
I live in Toronto so I know exactly what you are talking about when you describe the salt on the roads. Don't forget the tires are also colder and harder now than in the summer. Even if the roads were clean and dry, you will not get close to the traction in sub freezing temperatures as you would on a hot summer day.
"dwight" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:
Froggy, I believe you may have missed my point. When Princess was learning to drive, did you allow her to go through rolling stops, go a few mph over the limit, or daydream in routine traffic? I hope not. So if she shouldn't have done it, why would it be ok for anyone else to do it?
Joe Calypso Green '93 5.0 LX AOD hatch with a few goodies Black '03 Dakota 5.9 R/T CC
I'll give you the fact that there is more salt than sand in the mix around the lakehead... we saw it for several years when you guys tried flogging rusted out cars that couldn't pass Ontario safety laws here in the west.
It still remains that you "over-drove" the conditions. The road appears dry - whooppee... the salt is indeed loose since there is no mechanism to bond the salt to the road other than it's crystalline nature. Since salt crystals have no real strength, this is a tenuus bond. Freeway speeds, on ramp speeds, off ramp speeds... these are all maximum speeds during ideal conditions. The conditions you are describing are, obviously, less than ideal conditions.
Get with the parade.... if you want your roads to be completely bereft of any unsafe coatings/conditions/detritus.... someone will have to sign the cheque.
At this point in time you woud have been better off remaining silent. You are now trying to justify stupidity... "my back end breaks loose..." is a clear indiation of too much power being applied. You can't get out of a hole if you're gonna keep digging.
In case you're wondering... been living in northern Alberta for near 40 years..... the very few winter scrapes I've gotten myself in to have been due to ME.... It is up to me to look at the road.... it is up to me to read the road.... it is up to me to act responsibly. You're looking for excuses where there are no excuses to be had...
-- A happy kid behind the wheel of a 98 Mustang GT Cold air intake FRPP 3.73 gears Steeda Tri-Ax Shifter Flowmaster 40 Series mufflers (self-installed woohoo) Hi-speed fan switch
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