Brake Fluid Flush

I've been told by my garage that my brake fluid needs flushed. I have a 99 Prix with 76,000 miles. I had my brake fluid flushed at 58,000
and had to have my calipers replaced.
What would cause my brake fluid to become dirty so fast? I take good care of the car and most of the driving is highway.
Thanks Fred snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Pretty much a scam. This has been discussed here before. There are a few people who feel that because the master cylinder is opened once in a great while, moisture can get into the fluid and cause failure due to internal rust of the wheel cylinders and or calipers. Garages and dealers are CONSTANTLY looking for new ways to scare (and therefore scam) people into doing STUPID stuff to their cars. A girl where I work just had her engine freeze plugs replaced (a $300.00 job) at the advice of her mechanic! Her car was 2 years old with 20,000 miles on it! I've only changed one or two freeze plugs in the last 25 years!!! The scams just keep getting better! Unless your master cylinder lid has been left open for long periods of time, there should be no logical reason to flush your brake fluid. FIND A NEW GARAGE!!!!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
What are you talking about? Scam? Have you read the backs of brake fluid bottles? Brake fluid (dot 3) pulls moisture out of the air (plus every bottle I seen says "CAP TIGHTLY" for good reason). It gets in not only through the master cylinder but also through permeable brake hoses. Because of moisture getting into the brake fluid it lowers the boiling point of the brake fluid and it also becomes acidic through a electro- chemical reaction. To say its a scam is silly. If you want to start replacing expensive abs parts (or your wrecked car) go on doing what you're doing.
more below for fred

-- --------------------------------------- -Bonneville -Formerly known as -Bonnevilles R Kewl ---------------------------------------
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
So do you work for a dealership or are you just getting brainwashed by one? A little while ago you were disagreeing with me because I said that a person should change their transmission filter whenever they do a fluid change. What's up with you, dude? Everyone knows that brake fluid absorbs moisture like crazy. But how much moisture is going to get into a sealed system? Modern cars even have see through plastic master cylinder reservoirs so you don't even ever need to open them! And how in the HELL is moisture going to get through brake hoses unless they are 20 years old and cracked or leaking. Even if the hoses were submersed under high pressure only the TINIEST amount of moisture could ever get through them and into the fluid. I work with hydraulic systems every day. Do you? I've also personally owned over 100 cars in the past 25 years and have a fleet of company vehicles that regularly go to 200,000 miles with NO brake problems other than pad & shoe replacement. I would have to agree that having a measurable amount of water in a brake system would indeed cause rust, and might lower the boiling point of the fluid. But the question is, how is the water going to get into the system if the master cylinder is not opened regularly and there are no leaks in the system? Show me some legitimate data (NOT dealer or mechanic propaganda) to validate your claims that excessive moisture gets into automotive brake systems under normal conditions and I'll change my opinion.

-- --------------------------------------- -Bonneville -Formerly known as -Bonnevilles R Kewl ---------------------------------------
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Oh its all been made up. I'm so sorry. Companies like pennzoil, gm, and everyone else put this information out for the heck of it? Okay sure...

original message: -Have you actually busted open one of those filters and find anything trapped by it? Its got the consistency of a scrub pad...
Did I say not to change it?

You do not know what the car has been through by the owner so you do not assume that it has been kept capped/sealed. You can also not assume that the hoses are in good condition through this ng. HOSES WILL DRAW MOISTURE IN EITHER WAY. If you think RUBBER doesnt absorb moisture or anything else you are dead wrong.

200k miles and how many years old? Driving them in and out the garage doesnt heat up that fluid. "Your" driving habits in general may not be aggressive enough to heat up the fluid and if it is you might brush it off as being normal for hot brakes.

This has been common knowledge for years: Conventional DOT3 brake fluids will absorb and average of 2% or more of water in the first year of usage. (in a sealed system!!!) In that period, the boiling point can drop from 401 degrees to 250 degrees, a reduction of over 150 Fahrenheit degrees.
You can buy yourself one of these
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/pro_det.asp?P65=yes&tool=all&item_ID=14292 &group_ID=1687&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog
and see those results of the changing boiling points yourself. Sure the brakes will work fine but if its the same brake fluid 6 years from now and you start heating up the brake fluid dont expect the brakes to behave like new.
--------------------------------------- -Bonneville -Formerly known as -Bonnevilles R Kewl ---------------------------------------
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Bonneville wrote:

No, they don't put it out there for the heck of it. They make claims because they SELL FLUID. If they can convince to buy MORE of the products they sell, then they make more money. If they could effectively convince people of it, I'm sure they'd offer data that says you need to change your oil, transmission fluid, power steering fluid AND brake fluid at every other fuel fill.
As it stands, these are the same people who tell you that you need fuel injector cleaner in your tank ranging from every other fuel fill to every oil change. I bought into that crap, and guess what? My fuel injectors - which my mechanic later told me were already wuite clean - never improved in performance, and I ended up needing a new fuel filter because the crap I was putting in my tank was gumming it up.
Relying solely on companies with direct profit motives for your data (which you haven't posted, you just claim that they offer this "data") is like believing AT&T's word as gospel when they say you don't call your far-away relatives enough. Of course they're going to tell you this; if you believe it, they stand to make money off of you even if the claim isn't warranted.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ok I dont know what education you have had in cars but I dont take my car to anyone other than myself unless it involves equipment which I do not own. You're telling me stuff about fuel injectors that I have had a great deal of experiance and background in. Then that other guy tells me I've been brain washed when I have seen the various tested temp readings from brake fluid in cars with perfect brake lines, hoses, and are so called completely sealed according to him. Do you want me to write you a page or better on fuel injectors and what "I" have seen when doing flow bench test and what cleaning them has improved? Do you understand that the better they atomize fuel the more efficient the engine runs? Oh and let me also cover some of the "generic" fuel injector cleaners that go in the tank and melt fuel pumps and the good pressurised type that goes directly on the fuel rail. Ever think that fuel injector cleaner you used might of just released a bunch of crap from your tank? Of course your fuel filter would of clogged up then! Maybe you should do what I do. Take a pipe cutter and cut open your fuel filter to see what the blockage really is instead of thinking something as thin as injector cleaner could ever block up that filter.
Dont lecture me on things I have seen with my own eyes.
says...

--------------------------------------- -Bonneville -Formerly known as -Bonnevilles R Kewl ---------------------------------------
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Bonneville wrote:

No. Quite frankly, I dont rsut "I've been working on my car" as a credible form of credential any more than "we make the fluid and want to sell it to you."

Oh yes, I do. Fat lot of good that'll do if my destroyed, gummed up fuel filter can't deliver. Only 2k miles after I first put that stuff in, the fuel filter was removed and and I saw it for myself.
If the injectors are dirty, they need to be professionally cleaned. If you're qualified to do that, great! But don't don't tell me that a $3.00 bottle of gunk that only ends up in the fuel filter is going to do tthe job. If anything, this convinces me that you know LESS about brake fluid changes than before.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Isaiah, I gave up on trying to reason with this guy. You probably should also. I have already admitted that the potential is there for brake fluid to be contaminated by water. That's a scientific fact. But I also still believe that in a basically closed system, flushing the fluid is a waste of good money unless the system has been damaged or has been open to the atmosphere for extended periods of time. Now this is just my opinion and I can't be responsible for someone not changing fluid that legitimately needs to be flushed! When I go into the dealership these days (for warranty work ONLY, other than that I do all of my own work) I see them selling people power steering fluid flushes for $89.99, Brake fluid flushes for $99.99 and lots of other scams. I mentioned in an earlier post that they conned a girl at my office into getting her engine's FREEZE PLUGS changed on a virtually new car! People like Bon.ne.ville, who tend to spell the work "Cool" "K-E-W-L" point to data from the brake fluid manufacturers and the makers of electronic brake fluid testers as proof for their point of view. Isn't it ironic that the website of the leading manufacturer of the testers has bright red banners saying that the brake fluid tester is like "a cash register" and that it creates lots of opportunities for added sales. Nowhere can I find anything from the national highway safety people or any other independently recognized agency talking about the dangers of worn out brake fluid. I'd LOVE to see a police accident investigation report stating that contaminated brake fluid was the reason for an accident. I would imagine that Exide recommends that you change the battery in your car every few years also. I own a manufacturing company myself. I would NEVER blame a company for trying to convince people to buy their products. But that doesn't mean that I have to buy into a bunch of scams either.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yeah it must cost a fortune to do something in the driveway huh? Ok so when I checked multiple brakes systems and got boiling point readings of just over 200deg on old fluid and 400+ on others after flushing. you feel safe in the fact that a so called perfectly closed brake system has fluid that will boil at 200 deg. Yeah um if the fluid in the reservoir is hot after driving I would hate to think how hot it is in the brake lines at the time I was braking.

Theres a legitimate reason? Whens that? Never according to you.

I dont know the story of that car so I'm not going to say she did or didnt need them. Let me guess. You never seen a "new" car with a freeze plug leak in all your 25 years of fleet work. Unlike you who automatically assumed that this guy in the thread did not need his brake fluid changed and called all brake fluid flushes a scam, I however explained that the dirty fluid was simply fluid that was trapped in the abs system.

Yep I'm so stupid because I used a phonetically spelled version of cool. Oh I'm so sorry for trying to be a little creative with my screen names. I'll be sure to have all creative thought removed on my next brainwashing.
When people start attacking others for little crap such as spelling its usually because they are losing the argument or didnt have one to begin with.

Stop looking for "worn" brake fluid and look for "vapor". When the fluid boils you get vapor, when you get vapor you get poor braking. In your world it would be just fine and dandy to put 4 year old used brake fluid into something like a nascar. Hey its fine, it came straight out of a SEALED system.

So would I considering Police are NOT autotechs so I dont know how they would put anything in a report that relates to the cars brake fluid considering its not in their training. Their main factors are whos at fault and what speed they were doing. Weak argument there.

Keyword is recommends, not required. Its called "preventive maintenance". It keeps people from getting stuck out in the middle of no where. Big scam going on there huh? Preventive maintenance needs to be illegal!

So tell me. Has anyone bothered to file these so called scamming companies that make brake fluid to the Better Business Bureau. If you hurry up you just might be the first!

Take a new filter and a bottle of injector cleaner (do not attach it to your car) poor it through the filter and tell me if it gums it up.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Wait that was a dif pdf file. This is the one I ment to link
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/sae/1999-01-0483.PDF
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
My first 4 cars I never flushed the brake fluid. I just bled a little out when It was time to change brakes.
This car I got now, I bled them a few times ( maybe 3 ) when the brakes were changed.
Last summer after I rebuilt the LF Caliper I bled each line out till I got 5 inches of fluid in a glass mayonaise jar out of each line. I used up all the brake fluid in that jumbo size Prestone Brake Fluid bottle plus some from a smaller bottle. So I assume I got all the fluid out of the master cylinder and lines.
Looking at the old fluid in the mayo jar didn't look all that different than the new fluid I had poured into another glass jar to compare the two. The old fluid was a little dirty but not bad looking .
I figure, BF is cheap put in some new stuff. No ABS here. Disc / Drum combo.
========Harryface ======== 1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE ~_~_~267,300 miles_~_~_
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Did my reply for this show up or is my isp screwing with me. I see my post to geoff but that was posted after this one... I dont want to type all that again.

-- --------------------------------------- -Bonneville -Formerly known as -Bonnevilles R Kewl ---------------------------------------
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
It's there. GW
"Bonneville" wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Did my reply for this show up or is my isp screwing with me. I see my post to geoff but that was posted after this one... I dont want to type all that again.
lol, it showed up just fine
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Keith Stelter wrote:

http://www.wilwood.com/faq.asp#question19
http://www.wilwood.com/products/master_cylinders/brfld/brakefluid.asp
http://www.thisisbucks.co.uk/motoring/display.var.587791.index.brake_fluid_danger.html
http://www.sdvsa.org/BrakeFluidFacts.htm
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ok, So you posted links to web pages for a brake fluid manufacturer, an article written by a person who was an engineer at a company that made (or sold) brake fluid, and an article containing quotes from a marketing director for a chain of auto parts. This is supposed to be unbiased, objective scientific data? I own a company that manufactures Industrial valves. Want me to write an article that justifies the purchase of a bunch of my valves by your local chemical plant or power plant? I can spit out all kinds of stuff about how you and your family are in grave danger because of potential problems with industrial valves that hold back poison gasses, toxic waste, etc. near your home. Heck, they had better change them every few months instead of every 10 years like they do now, even though there is no REAL data to back up my biased claims! Look, if spending $79.95 every two years makes you feel better or safer, do it! I could care less! But when dealers and other mechanics frighten people into doing all of this excess crap to their cars it's just not right!

http://www.thisisbucks.co.uk/motoring/display.var.587791.index.brake_fluid_d anger.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I agree with you guys that believe you should change your brake fluid periodically. I have seen the stuff come out of systems that were NEVER left open and sure as hell, it is nasty. Changing fluids is cheap insurance, I don't know why when it's suggested to spend a reasonable amount to have it changed so many people act like you need stock in Chevron to afford to do so. I feel the same about ATF. If more people changed it every 25,000 there would be less transmission failures.
___________________________________________________ People sleep peacefully in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf......George Orwell.

http://www.thisisbucks.co.uk/motoring/display.var.587791.index.brake_fluid_d anger.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Scott wrote:

Too true! I bought a 1990 Bonneville from the original owner. Had 127,000 on the clock. I paid $100 for it because the guy thought the trans was going south. He had been religious in changing the oil and all the other maintenance but had NEVER changed the tranny fluid or filter. Car was cherry but had some shifting problems, no slippage. I flushed it and the cooler with flush solvent kit recommended by a trans shop , put a new filter in and 1 can of the Pennzoil tranny conditioner, filled it the rest of the way with the Pennz for older trans. Ran fine, cleared up the shifting problems. I've noticed that cars that are considered "toys" sit too much for being good. Changing any fluid that can gather condensation (Brake Fluid) is indeed cheap when you consider the repair costs of the consequences. Doing it yourself is the key to keeping the cost down.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I agree with the fact that if someone wants to do ANY KIND of preventative maintenance on a car it's a GREAT thing! The reason I was posting with a "negative" position regarding this is that the original question was from a guy who had the garage flush his brake fluid, and then wanted him to have it flushed again like 10,000 miles later. This points to the problem that I have with these things being overly pushed by dealerships and garages these days! I do all of my own work on my cars, so if I want to flush my power steering fluid it costs me about $5.00 and half an hour. But when I hear a dealer service manager telling an old lady that it needs to be done every 10,000 miles @ $89.95 or her car will be unsafe it's a whole different situation! I just bought a 2004 GMC Envoy. When my wife stopped into the dealership to get the license plate they descended on her like flies and tried to convince her that all of the stuff that I had declined like "Teflon body plating", extra service plans, etc. were essential. Bottom line: Changing brake fluid regularly if it makes you feel safer or better = GREAT! Changing brake fluid every 10,000 miles because a mechanic tells you that your car will be unsafe or will eat major components unless you do = BOGUS! Again, just my opinion.

127,000
filter
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Motorsforum.com is a website by car enthusiasts for car enthusiasts. It is not affiliated with any of the car or spare part manufacturers or car dealers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.