Actually, the Honda Accord is the #2 best selling medium sized sedan. The Camry is #1. The Prius is the best selling hybrid. Honda Odysseys sell very well, although Chrysler may out-sell them (Odysseys are pricey). The Civic sells well in a crowded segment. And gee, no rebates on any of them!
Uh, you are abusing the term "problematic". It means:
Debatable: open to doubt or debate; "If you ever get married, which seems to be extremely problematic"
Baffling: making great mental demands; hard to comprehend or solve or believe; "a baffling problem"; "I faced the knotty problem of what to have for breakfast"; "a problematic situation at home"
It does not mean trouble-prone as you seem to think. And, again, you are misinterpreting the five year old model reliability numbers that CR publishes. Please read the caption next to the graphs.
Let's see. Page 80 of the April, 2006 issue. Recommended used cars include:
Chevy Prism, Ford Escort, Ranger and Mustang, Mercury Tracer, Saturn SL, Buick Regal, Ford Crown Vic and F-150, Mercury Grand Marquis, Buick Century and Regal, Lincoln Continental and Town Car, Chevy Silverado, PT Cruiser, GMC Sierra, Chevy Impala, Chevy Monte Carlo, Pontiac Vibe, Pontiac Grand Prix, Saturn Ion...
OK, I'm getting tired of writing names. Point is, you have no clue what you are talking about.
The avoid list has no Toyotas, but it does have the Honda Passport. Also a whole bunch of Nissans and lots and lots of domestic and European models...including Mercs and Porsches.
Mike,
why do you keep repeating this misinformation? Toyota is #3 right now, unless you have a cite that contradicts the figures I've already posted.
nate
Mike Hunter wrote:
Haven't been in this thread before but it would be interesting to look at sales divided into two categories A) People buying personal cars with their own money and B) People buying cars for someone else with public or corporate money (fleets, rentals, etc.) I suspect that GM/DC/Ford would lead in category B and that Toyota and Honda would lead in category A. Don't know that for a fact. Just my opinion.
Howard
89 Mustang 5.0 95 Windstar 3.8
You're probably right, in part because most fleet buyers don't even consider foreign cars because they don't want to appear unpatriotic.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the US mfgrs. get back on their feet and start producing cars that people actually want; minimizing the problem doesn't help to solve it though.
nate
What difference does it make who buys their vehicles? I owned a fleet service business up until a few years ago. We serviced thousands vehicle for large and small corporate fleets as well as government fleets, is six eastern states. EVERY manufacture offers specially equipped vehicles to corporate fleets at a discount, of around the same amount $400 to $600 if you buy five or more, and they all try to get more of the corporate fleet business. Few corporate fleets buy very many imports because contrary to what many believe, import can not compete with domestics in the total cost of ownership over the five years, or 300K, fleets generally keep their vehicles because of federal depreciation tax laws. Fleet vehicles get the finest of preventive maintance and are generally used harder than privately owned vehicles. Fleets look at the total cost of acquiring, insuring, maintaining, repairing (they ALL need to be repaired at some point) and replacing the vehicles which are just one more tool used in their business that must be replaced at some point. Ford motor company vehicles are generally the best in that regard, that is why the biggest majority of corporate fleet vehicles are Fords. GM is second. LOOK at the corporate light trucks you see daily, Ford trucks dominate. The only state I know of that buys import brands is Tennessee, they use Nissan trucks that are assembled there. The biggest problem with most imports is acquisition costs, that average 25% higher for the same type of vehicle, and down time because of parts availability. As well as the much higher price of the parts themselves.
On the bottom end of fleet car business, imports have a majority of business, however Primary Korean cars that are used as courier cars, others are Corollas, Civics, Neon's, VWs, Focus etc. Courier cars are run round the clock and rarely turned off except for maintenance. They easily accumulate 100K a year or more and are dumped sooner.
mike hunt
. "Howard Nelson" wrote in message news:coGPf.34907$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
"Mike Hunter" wrote in news:Q0SdnROSP snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:
yeah, yeah. We've heard it a bunch that you've owned a fleet business.
It *matters* who's buying the vehicles because, as is frequently reported, the fleet or rental business leaves little or NO profit in the cars the manufacturer is selling. Fleet sales can keep a factory busy or artifically boost a vehicles sales numbers, but they do little for the profitability of the company.
JP
Actually I owed a business that SERVICED fleet vehicles. I guess you missed the part of the post that listed the average fleet discount offered to dealers, to sell to fleets, is only between $400 and $600 among all brands
Perhaps you might want to do a bit of research before you choose to comment on a subject of which you obviously have little or no knowledge. Manufactures can not sell directly to corporations or anybody else, that is a violation of franchise laws. Manufactures can only sell to their franchise dealers. The dealers sell the cars to fleets, generally based on bids. The guys that settler for the lower profits to get the fleet business are the dealers. ;)
mike hunt
all cars are good now days if you keep them for 4 or 5 years. but if you want a car to last for say 10 years i will go with a toyota or honda every time.have a 97 corolla since new and no problems. can still park it in my garage no leaks on the floor.just oil changes tans flush, brakes and tires so far. try that with a 10 year old ford or chevy.or course if you are going to trade every 4 years or so the ford or chevy would be a good buy. not even a check engine light in all that time. you know its the truth.
"Mike Hunter" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net:
didn't much care. Owned a fleet biz. or owned a biz that services, you're still presenting yourself as a fleet expert. Semantics at this point relative to the discussion.
not at all, I just don't believe it. Besides, regardless of the narrow definition you'll choose to use, 'fleet' includes the rental agencies, and that is specifically what I was referring to. I'd be curious to know the relative sales through "fleet" as you define it and rental agencies... ie-what percentage of "fleet" sales in total is to rental agencies. Those are the sales that keep people working with no profit margin for the manufacturer.
Perhaps you should be less beligerent and a jerk. You're here defending american auto manufacturers and their sagging market share against all logic, reason, and fact presented to you. You won't even acknowledge the other viewpoints, and you weaken your own points along the way.
Actually I'm not defending anyone but I am as expert as anybody in the business. I've worked in vehicle design for three manufactures, in top management of retail group for ten years and in fleet service for ten since I graduated from college in 1949.
You are free to believe whatever you wish. I am merely point out the facts available to anybody willing to do the search. GM still is the number one selling manufacture in the US, period. In the fast growing market in the US GM, Ford and Chrysler still sell more than ALL of the twenty or so import manufactures that offer vehicle for sale in the US, combined. Those are facts not opinion. Who chooses to buy their vehicles is immaterial. Rental fleets are simply not the same as corporate fleets in how they use and service the vehicles they own or lease and that too is a fact, whether you happen to agree or not. Call any dealership of you choose and ask for the fleet Sales Manger, or the person that sell to fleets for the dealership. Ask him what is the amount of the fleet discount, pretty simple stuff. Manufactures can not sell to anybody but dealerships and that is a fact as well Seems you are the one being a jerk because you do not like that what you believe is being challenged.
mike hunt
Yep. But they're losing ground. In both share and units sold. And they're losing money.
Fast-growing? Look at India and China. And Toyota will probably be #1 World-Wide next year.
Business-as-usual isn't going to cut it. Hmmm... I wonder how many HHRs we'll export? SSRs?
You don't even see GM cars in the Caribbean. Bah.
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Well, it doesn't help Toyota break into the domestic dominated fleet biz when they (according to :
With respect to all Commercial fleet sales, availability will remain very limited with longer than normal order-to-delivery timing (possibly in excess of 6 months). Commercial fleet orders will most likely need to be spread out over several order/delivery months as we manage customer demand against our established monthly production guides. It is advisable to consult with your respective TMS Fleet Field Manager and/or PD Fleet Manager specific to our ability to support a Commercial customer on Prius. (end quoted portion).
So, when the fleet owner sends out his RFB (requests for bids) no wonder Toyota doesn't even send a thank-you note back.
The density of some people posting such UTTER NONSENSE about Consumer Reports must exceed that of the inside of a black hole.
Come on people, face it, CR survey results come from responses of people who bought and own the cars they are responding about. They do not come from Consumer Reports. All they do is add up the responses. CR survey results are relied by intelligent folks in making buying choices for exactly that reason - the credibility of the guy who owns one...of lots of guys who own one, in fact.
Here's another one for you conspiracy kids who think that CR is out to get GM. I had a 2000 Yukon XL for five years and 30,000 miles. The thing was pampered. It was used as a traditional station wagon. It had lots of problems (fuel pump failure, dead power window motor, defective outside rear-view mirror (twice), cracked interior trim, rear window defroster failure, ABS sensor failure, power door lock control failure). The expensive stuff failed out of warranty and cost a total of $1400. Would have been $1800, but I replaced the rear window with an after-market instead of GM part. Yet, if you look at the CR rating for the Yukon XL it is pretty much average. I would consider it to be worse than average...and compared to our
1992 Lexus LS400 that we have had for 12 years, much, much worse than average. So as far as I'm concerned, CR went easy on the 2000 Yukon XL. Except they didn't because most folks have had less trouble than I did and that's what CR reports. The average of their responses.
Go read the interview with the guy who runs Toyota USA in the April Motor Trend and you will see why it is not at all hard to believe...and true. They really are VERY different from the domestics.
By the way, the Honda Passport is on the CR "shit list". Come to think of it, wasn't that an Isuzu, anyway?
Nope, they are unquestionably subjective in terms of what they think a good car should be like. They traditionally like reliability, good mileage, good comfort, smooth ride, easy to use controls, good visibility, and so on. The kinds of things the average car buyer wants most, who is not a car enthusiast. And that is most of the car buying population.
They have traditionally not had too much to say to people who love to drive, but that has been changing. They have taken to testing performance cars...and they like what they test and say so. They like the Honda S2000, Porsche Boxter, Chevy Corvette, BMW M3, and Subaru Sti.Cars that the average car buyer would have no use for, but cars that enthusiasts hold in awe and that get high ratings in the buff books. But they deal with cars like that as a different category than mainstream cars. There is subjectivity, in other words, but it is appropriate for the audience.
If I was a person looking for a transportation appliance, as I think most people are when they car/van shop, I would pay very close attention to what CR writes and use them as a screen for what cars I will actually bother to personally look at. If they say a car/van is a dog, it will be. If they say it will be excellent, it will be. I may not like the styling or some particular feature, but I can have complete confidence that all they write about it will be true.
I don't recall them ever testing anything as niche market as soldering equipment. Please supply the issue number. I have files dating back into the '80's and would love to see this faux pas.If what you are talking about pre-dates that, even if true, give me a break...I doubt if anybody who wrote what you claim they wrote is still even with CR.
I don't think that anyone can argue that CR ratings are wholly objective. They are not because, as you say, somebody has to decide what is important and how important. Not hard art the gross level, but harder as you get into the fine points. Case in point. We needed to replace a refrig. As always, I check CR and find that Whirlpool's are reliable and that they also supply Sears and the Sears models are also reliable. Very minor difference in the ratings of the two brands from the comparison test CR did. We decide to by the Whirlpool flavor of a given model because we get a better price on a floor sample. We get it home, turn it on and the first night we have it I am shocked at how noisy it's compressor is. I recheck the CR ratings and see it is rated average for noise while the Sears model is rated better than average. More research reveals that the Sears version gets additional sound insulation. I end up PO'd because I have what I consider a noisy refrigerator. CR correctly reported that the Sears model is quieter, but they did not emphasize how much quieter or how noisy the Whirlpool is. I wish they had as I'd have bought the Sears. Somebody at CR made a subjective choice on reporting that I wish they had not made. (We got used to the noise, by the way.)
Your bias logic w.r.t survey responders holds no water, on the other hand. CR asks people about how much trouble they have had with their purchase. There is no politics in that question, there is no CR point-of-view to share - either the thing broke or it did not. I don't know what kind of bias you find in the selection of people who choose to respond to the surveys, either, that would impact the results so as to give an inaccurate result. If you say that people who have things break on them are more likely to respond, well OK, that means the companies that make crap will take it in the chops more than they would have otherwise, but that's OK - the quantitative result is off, but not the qualitative one (junk is still junk, but it may come out as worse junk than it really is good stuff is still good stuff, but it may come off as less good than it really is and still much better than the junk - you can still compare). If you say the opposite, than that just shifts results a little in the other direction, but relative differences still hold.
If anything, there will be a general tendency to forgive deficiencies "Neill Massello" wrote in message news:1hbqb1x.5z24g31fvgjokN% snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net...
Hi Mike,
My father in law is the fleet sales manager for one of the Ford dealerships here and you are right in every respect. The fleets simply do not get pricing that is lower than what the dealership pays the factory for, that is nonsense. Dealerships simply do not sell cars for less than what they paid, period. And the factory does not gave a damn about selling directly to the fleets at some special price. The factories know that the fleets are going to buy a lot of cars from them no matter what dealership the fleets use, and they don't sell at below their cost, either, or at least try not to. Since the factories price varies by volume that is how you get GM loosing billions, because they screwed up their forecasts of how many cars they were going to sell - so they sell fewer cars and their price to make the smaller volume is not as low as they thought. This is the only area that fleet sales are helpful to the manufacturer, because it increases volume which generally means lower prices to build that model, and if that model has a lot of rebadged versions, it can help. But, fleets are fickle too and the auto manufacturer has no way of knowing in advance what is going to be the popular fleet models for that year, save for a few specialized ones (like the crown vics which the cops use)
Fleet sales are desirable from a dealership perspective because it boosts the delaership sales volume and the vehicle manufacturers all have incentive programs that give bigger discounts to dealerships that sell more. In all truth of it, the entire thing is rediculous, because what it ends up doing is making it more cost effective for super-dealerships and corporations that own chains of dealerships to come into existence. You really do not want to buy a car from a corporate dealership if you can help it, since the people your buying it for don't really give a damn if you have a good experience or not. By contrast with the small dealerships the owner of the dealership is usually working right in the dealership every day and if a customer wants to see him, half the time he's walking around the sales floor.
Ted
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