Comments please. After having a few root beers with the boys last night, a few of them mechanically knowledgeable (definately not me though), a few sober thoughts abound. *** Is syhthetic and semi synthetic oil worth a nickel more than good quality name brand conventional oil ? ***
My service rep at local GM dealer says two things: 1) GM manuals and guidelines say virtually nothing about synthetics - just change frequently with proper quality oil. 2) He personally MAY use synthetics in the middle of winter and MAYBE in the middle of summer. A waste of money otherwise." I guess he values me as a customer. The weather can be extreme where I live - I was about to spend 70 big ones (Canadian $) for syn or maybe do myself.
My mechanic bud says: 1) Synthetic oil is mostly recycled oil that we send back to the oil companies for free and we then let them charge us way more to buy back. Is this true; is it recycled oil ?? 2) He suggests also to use name brand bulk oil for best value and performance. 3) Semi - synthetic oil may be trouble in some vehicles as the syn oil floats to the top of the conventional oil when idle.
My philosopher friend (after a few pops) says : Who in their right friggin state of mind would ever trust the oil companies as they secretly run (and rape) the entire friggin planet. Huge maketing scam from the world best paid marketing departments. Quote, Unquote. He says the same things when sober (seldom). We could make a SciFi movie about some of his stuff ! Recycled oil? Wow. Food for thought though. Or beer for thought.
Anyways, I personally cant feel a difference in my Grand Prix but at the same time I realize that engine oil is the most important thing you can do for my car. I welcome all sober advice. Winter is on its way. THANX
I think the best I can come up with is that synthetic is conventional+stabilizers+additives and semi-synthetic is like conventional+stabilizers+some additives. I'm near positive that they're not the same thing. The recycling thing should be looked at like the 2 oils are going to be mixed into a big container and taken away and then they take out what they can and reuse it in both conventional oil and synthetic.
(BTW...this is what I think and I'm not positive for any of it)
Synthetic, sure it is. Semi-synthetic, who knows??
He can't see the forest for the trees since GM uses Mobil1 synthetic as the factory fill in the Corvette.
Okay, he's smart enough to realize that synthetic will flow better at cold temperatures, but a preference for it in summer? Does he realize that ambient temperature has no effect on oil temperature in general since it (ambient temperature) is well below the expected temperatures that would be found internal to the engine while running, i.e., rings, ring lands, piston skirts, underside of the piston, valve stems, valve guides. Kind of like saying that the surface of the sun is cooler at night time, if you catch my drift.
Your mechanic friend is an idiot.
har... Having used oil (drain oil) hauled off from a repair facility is hardly done for free. Twenty years ago, maybe, but not now.
No, but if it were, what difference would it make? Virgin crude oil comes out of the ground and is dirty anyway. (they suck it out of the dirt fer cripes sake)
Bulk? Like from a tank truck that god knows what was hauled in it before your batch of motor oil? Value? I can buy cases of one quart bottles cheaper at NAPA wholesale than what I can buy the same oil in 55 gallon drums, plus I don't have to tie up money in drum deposit fees and there is no special equipment for dispensing.
"Floats", that's a real knee slapper! This guy is a muh-ca-nick huh?
He's never heard of independant analysis, huh? If it were a marketing scam, these alleged crooked companies would be caught at it right quick.
Oh, so he's a drunk.
You could, but I doubt anyone would pay money to see it.
Exactly *what* difference were you expecting to feel? You pour it in the crankcase, you -don't- rub it on your scalp.
Yes it is. Synthetics are superior, reading the technical specifications for any/all motor oils bears this out. It is up to you to decide whether they are worth the extra cost. If you're leasing a car for three years and only puting
45,000 miles on it, it's doubtful that you'll recoup the extra cost in engine longevity. If you keep your vehicles a long time and wish to not suffer internal lubrication related problems, synthetic oil can be the best way to hedge your bet. AFAIC real motor oil costs about $4 a quart, the pretend piss water costs about a buck a quart.
Alcohol kills brain cells, your drinking buddies appear to be beyond hope though. And they are definitely NOT very mechanically knowlegeable.
Yeah, and how long did it take before they went after the tobacco industry. And now Motorola who is doing the same by saying that driving and calling is safe? Don't get your hopes up, oil companies spend million do have 'responsible' people do their own research to counter independent analysis.
To create double grade oils (like 10W40) they use a lot of polymers, they get burnt and screw up your oil a lot. Less problems with synthetic oil, so fewer oil changes, so will end up being cheaper. Using synthetic and changing every 3000 miles is a waste of money, stretch the interval to make it worth your money. Well, and how simple is it to do this test at home (actually not at home, but with your car)
I've never used synthectic oil in my car and I've got 270,000 miles. From March 1991 to January 2003 I've done 75 oil changes at 3000-4000 mile intervals.
I use Penzoil or Castrol 10 W 30. AC Delco Filter PF 47.
========= Harryface =========
1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE ~_~_~270,000 miles_~_~_
5w30 Mobil One
10w30 Mobil One
20w50 Mobil One
5w30 of the cheapest noname oil
10w30 of the cheapest noname oil.
put them outside overnight in January when it's -30. Open and pour. If that doesn't convince you, take them inside, heat them up in a (cheap) saucepan to 300 degrees. I recommend doing the Mobil One first - you'll not be busy scraping the sludge off from the cheap stuff.
***I don't use Mobil One. I use Pennzoil - the only time I ever blew an engine it was running Mobil One. Probably coincidence.***
I also believe that if you change your oil regularly, using the cheap stuff is better than using Mobil One and not changing it regularly.
The issue was with the motor or operator not the oil. Mobil 1 does NOT cause engines to spontaneously blow up. What kind of rumor are you trying to start here?
Ok let me use a sample of someone my dad knows that has been using mobil
This guy has a full size chevy van with a v8. He has over 250K miles on this van. He has been using synthetic oil since the time he bought it new. This is how he's been doing his oil changes.
-After 4000 miles he changes his filter and adds a quart to replace the oil that was in the filter.
-After another 4000 miles he changes both his filter and oil.
-After another 4000 the process starts over.
Now keep in mind he has over 250k on this full size van and it does NOT BURN A DROP OF FRIGGIN OIL! Now you tell me, is synthetic bs? How many sbc's do you know of with that many miles that dont burn oil?
Synthetic oil contains things like micron-sized Teflon particles which are drawn to hot spots inside the engine. Think about it. Whats better, piston rings scrapping the piston walls taking off the honed surfaces or teflon coating them and keeping them sealed and slick. The block of the engine makes the most power when the cylinder walls have the original honed finish. You can take apart a engine that has run synthetic from day one and one that hasnt after 100k and still see the honed surface on the one that used synthetic oil. However the one that used conventional oil will most likely have a nice glazed over piston walls.
To say synthetic oil is bull shit or a scam by big oil truly shows how ignorant a person can be. They might as well say cooking oil is all an engine needs to stay lubricated. They have been using synthetic oils in bearings on jet engines for decades before they even developed it for use in cars. If its the only oil that holds up in something turning at
60,000rpm or better why the hell wont it work in a engine turning at 800-
7,000rpm?!?!
I drive a Ford full size van V8, 350k miles, oil (dyno) + filter change every 4000 miles. From the top of my head I now 6 others with atleast 300k and similar maintenance, so what's your point?
Ever used T-fal cooking pans, all teflon coated, but the slightest scratch with metal will damage the coating, so I wonder how strong the teflon is attached to the piston rings, I would say it comes right off with movement. Besides, I blame the scraping of the cilinder walls on carbon build-up, that depends on your gasoline and not on your oil.
Yes, synthetic is better and last longer. But why waste money on something that is 'developed' for 60,000 rpm on something that will max out at about
7,000 rpm? Syn lasts longer, but as long as you change your dyno every 3-4k miles I don't see a major difference besides below 0F performance. Nothing magic about synthetic oil
Wow. I just can't resist, so here are the budgeted two cents regarding the myths about syn:
Synthetic oil is *not* recycled standard oil. Synthetic oil comes from a chem lab, not the ground/a dinosaur. The primary useage of "recycled" motor oil is processing into hydraulic oil and possibly generic, low-buck qwickie-mart brands.
Synthetic "blends" or "partial synthetics" are just that: synthetic oil is "diluted," if you will (usually by about 75%), with conventional oil and packaged as a blend or partial.
Synthetic oils maintain virtues for use at both ends of the ambient temperature spectrum. Syns tend to flow significantly better at low temperatures while retaining the viscosity of a heavier oil at operating temperatures and beyond. You will note that syns generally are marked with a broader multigrade range. I use Valvoline syn 5-40 here in Laramie, Wyo's cold winter. The pour-point of a synthetic oil can be much lower (depressed) given a particular viscosity.
Synthetic blends do not separate. Synthetic oil will not "screw up" a mill that has run conventional before. In the instance of a poorly maintained, internally sludged motor, synthetic may do a superior job of breaking down sludge. This in itself is good, but if large chunks of detritus pass through bearings, or are washed from behind hardened/failed seals, wear or leakage, as applicable, *may* result. This is not a fault of syn, it is a consequence of failure to perform proper maintanance in the past.
Yes, multigrade conventionals are a marvel of chemical engineering, as are synthetics. "Polymers" aren't a devil that get burnt and screw things up. All motor oils are formulated with such compounds; synthetic is entirely composed of "long chain polymers." The belief that conventional single-grade motor oils are superior due to lack of "polymers" reminds me of the incredible business aftermarket ignition manufacturers did a few decades ago selling dual-point distributors to replace those "newfangled and worthless" HEIs.
Synthetic oils do not contain PTFEs (Teflon). Many oil additives (such as Shit 50) do, however. The topic of PTFEs is hotly debated. However, one must bear in mind that Teflon is a solid substance that is not soluble in motor oil. It does not "stick" or "bond" to cylinder walls, journals, rings, et al; engine oil performs this function. PTFEs float around in the motor oil; nothing more. While teflon has remarkable self-lubricating or "non stick" properties, oil is a far more efficient lubricant. PTFEs can cause damage to an engine. Since they are non-soluble, solid particles, they can become lodged in inopportune areas, such as hydraulic lifter orifii, bearing galley feeds, etc., and starve critical components for oil. This may seem unlikely given that the PTFE particles are very small, but recall that main/rod bearing to journal clearances are measured by the ten-thousandth of an inch. I set small chevy clearances anywhere from .0015 to .0030, depending on intended use and expected duration, among other factors, and modern production engines, depending on cylinder block composition, may go tighter than this. The internal plunger in a juice lifter fits even tighter.
Furthermore, PTFEs are unneeded to function as a "backup" lubricant in the event that the oil film is sheared and metal->metal contact occurs. A zinc compound (pyrithione zinc??) serves this purpose. (Interestingly, I have heard rumors that zinc is being (has been?) phased out of general use engine oils due to the possibility of deposit formation on valves. Anyone have further information on this?) Perhaps Teflon could serve a value if used as a fused-on coating on load bearing surfaces, but evidently molybdenum (rings) and zinc or indium compounds (bearings) have proven superior. An exception would be piston skirts, where dry film coatings are sometimes applied; I believe these are DuPont Fluoradditive based.
The claimed friction reduction of a synthetic is not a marketing scam (even considering the likely correct comments about oil company marketing budgets). I have personally witnessed the advantages of synthetics on an engine dynamometer. All other factors held as close to constant as humanly possible, a switch from dino to syn typically will reveal an increase in both power and torque of around 5 units. While this isn't necessarily incredible from an acceleration or load-pulling standpoint, it does illustrate a noted reduction in frictive losses.
The useage of synthetic oil should not be construed as an excuse to run extended change intervals. Oil does not wear out; it becomes contaminated. Syns may cope with contamination, both chemical and particulate, better, but why take chances? Air filters tear or do not seal properly. Blow-by and moisture will always accumulate in the crankcase, particularly if a vehicle is driven short, stop and go distances and never warms fully and long enough to burn off water and acids from the oil to be evacuated via PCV. A synthetic will help insure that the additive packages have not been consumed and that particulates have not exceeded the oil's suspension capacity. It is foolish to extend oil change intervals based on these advantages just as it is foolhardy (for several reasons) to run into a tree purposely just because a vehicle's airbags reduce the chance of occupant injury.
Anyone want to debate octane boosters, hi-po airfilters or the Incredible Sold on TV Tornado Gas Saver next??
Cheers and happy driv> Comments please. After having a few root beers with the boys last night,
Zinc was removed from motor oil back in 1995 or there abouts because it is a heavy metal and will poison a catalytic convertor similar to how lead would. OBD2 requirements mandated that the cat-con be warrantied for 8yrs/80K miles or 10yrs/100K miles, that wasn't going to happen because the zinc in motor oil would shorten the operational life of the cat.
There are motor oil brands specifically targeted at the motorcycle market that still contain zinc, motorcycles placing a higher need for zinc as a high pressure additive and not having to meet OBD2 requirements.
Obviously you missed my point. Do the math, theres about 4/5ths of that=20 oil with 8000 miles on it between changes. NOT 4000! No since in trying to= =20 convence you of anything so why should I bother.
I'm guessing that some searching thru the API and Lubrizol web sites would yield an answer as to what substitute compounds are being used. (calcium -might- be one of them)
It is my understanding that zinc as an additive is/was meant as a last ditch defense against catastrophic failure, like when the bozo at the quick lube forgets to fill your crankcase back up or a sudden oil pump failure at highway speed. Under normal operating conditions, after engine break-in and barring a parts failure, the zinc probably isn't really all that important.
OEMs are gravitating towards solid Aluminum bearings (rod-main) as one answer to bearing longevity, Aluminum is much more durable but has less desireable "imbedbility" characteristics than the more common babbit layer type bearings. This lack if tolerance towards imbedability makes strict adhereance to oil change intervals more important than ever.
It is funny this oil debate came up in the Chevy pickup group at least
10 times the past year and for some god unknown reason it ends up with everyone being right.
I am a recent owner of a 1996 Bonneville with only 42,529 miles on it. Very well kept car and I dont think the prior owner ever let it see the winter months. Anyway the dealer that I got it from said they just did a recent oil change and they use Valvoline exclusively and NAPA filters. I asked if it was conventional oil or synthetic, he replied conventional.
The debate that raged on in the Chevy group was not pretty, with the old school going the route of conventional oils and the new school going with synthetic. Pretty much any mechanic or manufacturer will tell you that if you use a good grade of oil and filter and change the oil when scheduled the engine will last for many years. I have a 1991 Chevy S-10 4.3 with
194,770 miles on it and I loose maybe less than half a quart between changes. Oil of choice is Havoline or Valvoline 10w30 summer and 5w30 winter and Purelator filters. I once bought a cheap brand of oil at Sears for some unknown reason my performance was questionable.
Nobody has yet won the debate over conventional oil or synthetics. What everyone pretty much agreed to was that if you keep to your maintenance schedules and use quality items then the engine will do fine for many years to come.
I agree- I have noticed the prevalence of aluminum bearings nowadays. I've played with them somewhat with mouse motors, and have noted that motors from less than ideal conditions (poor maintenance, offroading, etc.) tend to show more frequent scratching of the crank journals due to elevated particulate contaminant levels. They do seem to live longer in tighter-tolerance, well-maintained basic transportation engines, by my experience.
Of course everyone is right! We're gearheads; our beer and tobacco consumption is exceeded only by our display of ego Regardless, I agree that faithful maintanance with conventional can help an engine live a long, long time. The "insurance," if you will, of a synthetic is, in my opinion, well worth the cost, particularly since I tend to build a lot of "Saturday night special" motors and occasionally rebuilds for farmers' pickups. Regular synthetic oil changes are still cheaper than regular bearing changes when you tend to ruthlessly beat on your vehicle, as most people do (including me), knowingly or not.
Happy driv> It is funny this oil debate came up in the Chevy pickup group at least
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