Re: front end mis-alignment or...?

back from the 4000km trip to northern BC and the Yukon.

> wild country. roads were great for the most part and lots > of winding highways up and down mountains (rockies and > cascades). > > had new Dunlop SP Sport 5000's put on the car before i left, > wheels were aligned. a little more than half way along > (2500km), i noticed that the inner edge of the front tyres > were both severely worn. then, taking a longer, harder > look, it appeared that the wheel camber was/is off. the > tyres are definitely splayed outwards at the bottom, but not > by a lot. > > though the tyres are directional, i decided to have them > turned around on each wheel (inside face out) so i didn't > lose grip on the road altogether for the rest of the trip. > back home again and the outside edge (which is on the inside > now) is also worn. and i mean bald. > > most of the time i was driving between 110 to 130kph, did > some passing at higher speeds, but i wasn't driving > aggressively (family comfort and safety in mind). > > a few questions: > > - could the front end have been "aligned" without the > mechanic noticing the camber? > > - can the camber be adjusted easily, or could this bespeak > bigger problems at the front end? > > - would the alignment problem cause such excessive wear on > these tyres? > > - if anyone has experience with the same or similar tyres, > is the rubber on these tyres so soft as to wear down > completely within such a "short" distance - complete loss of > tread before the tyres are worn in seems a bit excessive. > -- >

Just a thought Abdallah - does the car sit unevenly - left or right side lower due to possible spring/spring seat problem?

Or how was the handling - stable or uncertain? Wondering if you in fact were given a "toe-out" alignment by mistake.

I am however doubtful of my ideas here, since I can not imagine that any of these being true could result in the extreme tyre wear you describe.

If the camber's so far off that you see it, it's gotta be camber.

In my experiences, alignment specialists give you a printout of camber/caster/toe plus rear wheels' vector, both before and after their adjustments are made. Did you get any paper? Could be worth going back to the alignment people and demand that they measure all parameters (lasers and all that), with another equipment operator, in case the previous one got it all wrong.

If the people who did the alignment are the very same who sold the tyres, then you almost certainly have a case for them to fix the alignment and mount new tyres, all for free.

Grunff in his reply states that camber is all but unadjustable on these cars but *something* must have happened some time around when your alignment got done.

Another thing - if the accident you had a few months back were to be a factor in all of this, then your old tyres should have worn in the same way. Did you notice their condition prior to their being swapped out?

Keep us informed of your progress.

/Robert (have relatives living in northern B.C. - nice area you visited ;-)

Reply to
Robert Brown
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or right

i'll take a closer look when i have it on a level parking lot (i live in the hills).

if

handling was fairly stable. i took a look at the toe-out and it seems like that may be it, though its really hard to say. i'll be having it looked at by a specialist on friday.

the

that's what i thought.

camber.

it's still visible with the car unloaded.

printout

and

alignment was done as part of the accident repairs. i didn't get a printout. i'll be sure to ask for one on friday.

that),

good thought

sold

to fix

unfortunately they aren't. a bit silly of me, but they asked if they should check it and i said "no" because it had been done as part of the accident repairs. i should have had them double check.

unadjustable

its possible that i didn't notice. the tyres i had on the car at the time was a set from my wife's 9000S, pretty worn (i was just waiting till the trip before i bought new ones). handling wasn't that stable before the accident repairs but was noticeably better after, though they slipped a bit when the turbo engaged (not V-rated). then when i got the new tyres on, i could really feel the turbo again, handling was great, so i assumed that all was just "tickety-boo".

were

have worn

their being

as i said, they were so worn that i wouldn't have noticed any differential wear. they're probably at a tyre dump now

area you

hey, whereabouts Robert? we went from prince george up to fort st john and then followed the alaska highway up to watson lake. then came back down on the fairly isolated cassiar-stewart highway, south to smithers and back to prince george. so we probably saw all the towns up there, except the really isolated ones that are only accessible by off-road vehicles. i liked the cassiar highway the best. truly stupendous scenery *all* along the route though!

Reply to
Abdallah

left

no visible seating problem there - both sides appear to be at the same height.

to

friday.

i had a long and close look at the toe-out possibility. i'm no expert, but its definitely way off. i aligned the steering and aligned my eye with the outside face of the tyre, looking from the front on each side, and both tyres are turned toe-out - and it looks like the front of each tyre is out about 1.5cm!!! that blew me away. needless to say i'll be following up with the body shop that repaired the car after the accident... i guess the toe-out really improves "handling" at the expense of tyre wear??

how could the alignment guys do a "toe-out" alignment by "mistake"? and that badly!?

on the other hand, a lesson in not eliminating any possibilities until they are fully proven implausible... looking at the tyre treads now, the rest of the treads are very badly worn as well - almost half gone everywhere, not just the bald edges.

be

on level ground, the camber is not that noticeable - certainly less so than the toe-out...

one

looks like i'll be doing just that - trouble is that the body shop got paid by the insurance company, and would have to chase their alignment specialist - i don't know what my chances of getting them to pay for new tyres would be.....

had

grrr - now i'm kicking myself...

Reply to
Abdallah

What was damaged in the accident? You might be able to trace it back to that repair. Perhaps the frame wasn't straightened properly.

snipped-for-privacy@madmousergraphics.com

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design, print design, photography

Reply to
LauraK

to

trace it back to that

there's a thought. a pretty unsettling thought though. the left front fender was hit and then the delinquent vehicle bounced off and hit the left rear passenger door. it wasn't a heavy impact, but given the position of impact there may be some straightening to do. i can see i'm in for a bit of a shooting match with the bodyshop.

Reply to
Abdallah

Affendi(?) Abdallah - the impact incident you describe would suggest that you had seriously damaged your lower forward clip, your forward panels or your engine mounts.. The tire wear mileage you describe would be considered inadequate performance for low-grade racing slicks in pretty much any configuration as regards camber..

One of the great things about SAABs is that they - really - are designed to absorb impact and sheer in such a way as to isolate the passenger compartment - or the 'egg' - and I can personally attest to this quality regarding SAABs..

If the delinquent vehicle hit you in such a way as to spin around past your front passenger door - then - prang your side at the rear door - you were hit with very considerable energy.. But it very probably didn't feel as quite as serious as it actually would have felt in a lesser passenger shell commitment..

That SAAB shell is why it now takes air bags and curtains in new cars to average back to the passenger survival rates found in pre-airbag SAABs through the 80's.. But it is a trade off in that it is not easy to put right again once you have sacrificed the panel corrugation to the energy of the impact given it is designed to a considerably higher tolerance than other unit construction impact absorption systems..

In the SAAB - impact energy is absorbed on a very carefully planned ratio along a strategic corrugation and seaming model in any given panel in the inner body structure feeding into the firewall (a remarkably thick and study plate on a SAAB) and up the rear upper quarters and inner wheel well into the roof along the rear..

As energy is absorbed into the panel(s) the shell increases resistance literally on a schedule through the machine so as to lower the energy wave through the 'wetware' (you and I)..

Thusly - I too would be gravely concerned about this this tire wear - but I would eliminate some hopeful possibilities in this order:

First - the engine mounts or brackets may have been damaged so that the axles are no longer in the correct plane from the transmission to the inner bearing face..

Second - if they replaced one or both axles/hubs/bearings as a part of the repair - they may have replaced with a slightly longer axle/hub/bearing set.. Similarly - review the control arms, tie rods, steering rack and lower wheel mounts for correct tolerances..

Third - I had a pair of front springs replaced this Spring and was very surprised to see that they were considerably shorter than the OEM springs I needed in my particular model although the part numbers matched up.. This has 'lowered' the front end of my car. While not increasing inner tire wear as near as I can ascertain - it has 'lowered' my front end grip considerably when cornering by throwing off a very carefully considered weight distribution.. This weight issue was I think outlined earlier..

Finally find someone who does a lot of dealer insurance work locally - but who is not attached to the particular folks who repaired your machine - and have them take a very close look at the inner panel structure described above to check for a panel/clip driven change in geometry in any of the systems described above.

In the old 99/900 - you could tell immediately if a machine was lined up right by how the forward opening hood clipped back into the rails and tabs at the firewall.. If it has been smacked and you had concerns about how correctly it has been done - you checked the tabs and rails to see if they where flat, straight and undamaged - then checked carefully how the pins from the hood itself slid along and locked into tabs..

If the geometry was off in this system - the car would consume tires as described unless the wishbones where shimmed to accommodate for the changes in over all geometry..

As I think was pointed out earlier - 1.5 centimetres is a considerable spread and given that several remanufactured and used parts will in fact bolt in and operate correctly - but out of tolerance for a specific variation and model year - it may be possible that you have some part that is oversized and putting you wheels out..

However - it may well be that you have a inner panel/clip that has been pulled straight - but not then pinched in at the axle openings to account for the stretching that occurred when you where hit or the subsequent pull straight.. Have them take a look at the distance between the upper shock mounts under the hood and them repeat from the lower ball joint on the underside..

That alarming possibility suggested - it could equally be something as simple as someone shimming out something to meet some incorrect specification for your model year they have on hand.. Which would be a fair mistake as long as they are willing to fix it on the house..

It's a good over all safety design and a reasonable trade for the complication of the unit construction mounted suspension systems..

Good luck - al Shalah(?)

Reply to
Dexter J

FYI - proper accident repair assumes that the shop is qualified to check the distances from component to component on a frame machine whenever there's a chance of frame damage. With integrated shock towers, this can happen with a fairly minor impact. Your shop should have checked this, or should have ascertained that there was no possible way for the frame to have moved.

I'm still reluctant to believe that _both_ sides would be out after only one side was hit in an accident - unless the impact was severe and there was a force applied to the opposite side by the suspension on impact. In any event, the solution is the same - careful measurement down to the mm by a qualified tech.

Bob

Reply to
'nuther Bob

Agreed brother Bob - but worth outlining for future google generations and checking the whole darned system again is pretty much mandatory given that there is an obvious set-up problem after the repair.. It bespeaks an information disconnect somewhere..

Given it's out on both sides as you too observed - I'm betting it's nothing more than an incorrect specification for camber and they've dialed out the tie rod ends a bit too much trying to make sure it 'feels' as straight as it probably is..

Unfortunately - he now should review all the items listed (axles, arms, etc) to make sure the overall repair was correct - then - look at the shell if nothing obvious turns up.. What else can you do?..

Reply to
Dexter J

be out after

was severe

the suspension

careful

(axles, arms,

look at the

do?..

thanks everyone -

i'll keep the group informed of progress

Reply to
Abdallah

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