Tire/Tyre Favorites/Favourites & Why

*I* would like to know exactly which Michelins were on his car. Apparently, the details are not forthcoming...

Harvey

My 9000 CSE came with Michelin Pilots. Quality tyres but expensive to replace. I now use Gislaved 205/55/16 from the dealer. However, I have noticed that since many new cars now use 205/55/16, e.g. such as the humble Ford Mondeo, you can find more tyres of that size at a good price in tyre shops.

Ok, here are my views on tyres.

There are three main factors influencing the 'performance' of a tyre:

[a] Overall construction. This has a direct effect on how well a tyre takes abuse without being damaged, but does not make a significant difference to how the tyre 'feels' on the road. Generally speaking, the better makes will have better engineered tyres, but not by a large margin, because they all must meet the same standards at the end of the day. [b] Tread. Contrary to popular belief, tread pattern makes little difference to how tyres behave in the wet. Tyre manufacturerd openly admit that patterns are purely a fashion item. What does make a difference is depth (under 4mm and you start loosing tread usefulness) and percentage coverage. As long as you have adequate tread depth, most tyres will behave in quite a similar way in the wet, when you take [c] into account. [c] Rubber hardness. The one thing that makes a *big* difference to how tyres feel on the road. The harder the tread rubber, the longer the tyre will last and the more energy efficient it will be, *at the expense of grip*. All tyres are a compromise between longevity and grip. You can get extremely soft tyres which don't last very long but feel great, and you can get quite hard tyres which don't grip very well but last for ages.

Last year I bought a set of Khumo Ecstas for my 16vT. They are possibly the grippiest tyres I've ever had, both in the wet and dry. But 12k miles later, the fronts are completely knackered. The backs are about half worn.

So take your pick - hard tyres which last a while but don't grip very well, or soft tyres which grip well but don't last.

Before anyone suggests that the better brands achieve both, they don't - and I'll explain why. Soft rubber grips well because it deforms more, giving a larger contact surface area between rubber and road. I'm not talking about the macroscopic area that you see, I'm talking about the contact on a microscopic level. Because the contact area is that much bigger, the number of molecules lost from the tyre to the road is proportionally bigger.

Enough already about Milt (maybe he'll reply here)... Anyway, what are you riding on? Oh, an I forgot to mention "why" I like my Dunlop's: first, they're no where as "twitchy" as prior Pirelli Sport Volces; secondly, they're surprisingly good in the rain; thirdly, they're priced much better than Michelins; and lastly, they truly handle/hold very well. Just my .02 worth,

Michelin MXV4 plus. Both the MXV4 and MXV4 Plus are recommended for both the 9.3 and the 9.5 in the 2000 model year, IIrc.

So far, they seem to be quite good. I don't have a problem with them. Since I've lately driven in Mitsubishi Eclipses and Volvo 850's, I am not sure that the ride is due to the tires, or the Saab, or, for that matter, a combination of both.

I do like the car.

Oh, and we've owned a Honda Civic EX (93)... The EX is nice, but not a Saab.

Harvey

Ah Gislaved! was Haakapallita a model name made by Gislaved? I'll never forget the time when this young lady asked what kind of tires I had and I said Haaka...

-D

I've got Toyo Proxes FZ4's on my 97 900SE. Pretty good grip dry and wet. Very quiet. They're not too expensive either.

I had some Bridgestone's (forgot the model) on the car before the Toyos. When they got half worn, they got so noisy that I was embarrassed to drive the car. It's a convertable and I could hear the sound echoing off the houses in my neighborhood as I drove by.

in article kwL6b.4876$ snipped-for-privacy@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net, J. Harris at snipped-for-privacy@mindspringx.com wrote on 07/09/2003 20:18:

I'm actually very happy with my Michelins. I have recently dropped out my old Pirelli rear tyres (which were formally front tyres) and moved my front Avon ZV-1 rotationals back - I don't think you can still buy these.

I bought a pair of Michelin Energy. While they may not be the best, they do work well in both wet and dry conditions which suits the UK very well. We have no idea whether it will be wet, dry, snowing or what on any given day in the UK.

What I do find is that these tyres deal with that grimy road surface very well and much better than Avon or Pirelli IMO. I mean that sort of wet, sweaty, slightly greasy road surfaces we seems to get when it hasn't rained for a while, which is very rare :)

Gislaved *was* a Swedish company making excellent winter tyres/tires. Unfortunately they were bought by the German company Continental. The Gislaved factory in Sweden has been shut down and the tyres/tires sold under the Gislaved name are now designed and manufactured by Continental. The Gislaved tyres/tires are no longer what they used to be.

Hakkapeliitta is the name used by Nokian, a company in Finland, for their excellent winter tyres/tires. The former Gislaved master tyre/tire designer now works for Nokian.

Btw, I use Nokian NRZi 225/45 R17 XL (summer) and Nokian Hakkapeliitta Q (winter) on my 9-5.

< > < >

Vredestein Sprint 165x15 on the 95+96 and 155x15 on the Sonett.=20 Why? because this is one of the few brands that has this size. Michelin = also has them but a lot more expensive. =20

------------------------------------------- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96

We just put a set of Goodyear Eagle GP-H 205/55R16 tires on our 2002 9-3 and love them. Great tires, terrific traction. Available at all Sam's Club warehouses nationwide. Not V rated, H rated, but that's fine as the last time I went 160 MPH the tires were the last thing I was worried about shredding. ;-)

In article , snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...

Arround April, I was able to get a set of ZV1's for mine from the local AA garage. I ordered H rateds, but they got in V rateds, so I got a deal on the price.

In article , snipped-for-privacy@mindspringx.com spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...

Well, When I bought the T16, it had 195/65HR15's fitted. All no names, and the fronts badly worn. On a slightly damp road I would get wheelspin in the first three gears when it was leaking vacuum, and only getting base boost.

I decided to go back to the original size. After some phoning arround, and checking out, I could have gotten P6000s at kwikfit (who I didin't really want to use), Continentals Euromasters at ATS Euromasters, Michelins (don't know which model) at Costco, but didn't get a price, or the Avon ZV1's at the local AA garage, as I'm an AA member, I also got a

10% discount.

I decided to go with the AA quote as it was cheapest with the members discount. When they got them in and I went in for fitting, they had ordered V instead of H rateds. They wanted to charge me for them. I told them "bugger that, you quoted me, and I accepted. Not my fault you ordered the wrong part in". They agreed a deal, gave me staff discount instead of member, didn't charge the tyre disposal fee, or the normally quoted inclusive balance and valves fee, and taking off those little bits and pieces, they got the price to within £10 for all 4 fitted, balanced etc, instead of the £50 more it should have been.

Done approx 8k miles since they were fitted and no sign of wear. Did get the alignment/tracking checked when I had a trackrod end fitted though.

Ride is noisier than the no namers, and a little harsher, but that could be down to the drop from the incorrect 65 profile to the 60. Grip in the dry is excellent, in the wet it is good, but a little vague, so you don't push it so far.

I could have gone with a 205/55 and used T1 Proxes, but I've heard, while they grip well, they wear fast.

Some of the 9k boys on Saabscene swear by Bridgestone Potenza S02 and S03 models. Although they do wear quickly.

I have made three long replies to you in the last several days. I am sorry that none of them made it to your server. I have copied my original reply to you, below the line. Other people have indeed responded to this post, so I know it posted OK.

I don't intend to intrude on this thread. I'm not a troll.

I do want to note, though, that I bought two Dunlop Sports (good, but not premium tires) that seem to be better tires than the Michelins they replaced.

I think they might be better, because they run *much* cooler and hold air pressure much better than the Michelins do.

******** Here is my original reply to you **************

I didn't see your post until just now.

I have Michelin 195 X 60 X 15 MXV M+X tires on my 2001 Saab Base

9-3 coupe.

These are the standard tires that came as original equipment with the car. If you phone a Michelin retailer and tell them you have my car; this is the tire they would try to sell you as an OEM replacement tire.

The Left Front and Right Rear tires have blown out. One in March at about 4500 miles; and one this week at 10,300 miles.

The car shows only 10,350 miles now. 3000 miles were leisurely

500-mile trips to nearby cities in the American Far West, where freeways are quite good: Very "easy" miles for tire wear. I usually drive less than 70 MPH because of traffic conditions. I don't think I've ever driven more than 82 MPH or so (and that's stretching it), even on my trip to Nevada.

******

*******

Informally; I now think I should consider three possible causes: Road damage, defective wheel rim design, and defective tires.

++++ ROAD DAMAGE

I drive conservatively, mostly on well-maintained freeways. Neither blowout occurred after my hitting anything on the road. I believe it is possible but unlikely that driving conditions or my driving habits caused the blowout.

++++ WHEEL RIMS

I have noticed twice now, that my wheel rims are apparently designed to literally shred any tire on my Saab 9-3 that loses much pressure at all. Here is what happens:

1) The tire loses minimal pressure and the sidewall begins to flex on the rim. This happens in seconds, well before a driver could possibly notice.

2) The flexing causes the tire sidewalls to flex outward. This brings the tread belt into proximity with the wheel rim edges.

3) A ring on the sidewall where the sidewall joins the tread belt

comes into contact with the wheel rim edge well before the tire loses critical pressure. This creates heat and friction, and weakens the sidewall.

3) Tire pressure continues to drop. On a Saab 9-3, this almost always brings the tire tread belt to rest INSIDE the wheel rim, between the wheel rim edges.

4) With the wheel rim edges holding the tread belt, the sidewalls

come into contact with the wheel rim edges at the same consistant

ring of points around the tire. Consistant friction and heat at that narrow contact ring wears the tire out very quickly. But that isn't all......

5) Saab wheel wheel rim edges are rather narrow. Once in contact with the sidewalls, these wheel rim edges literally cut through the sidewall in seconds. Blowout.

I emathise; you don't need to lose much pressure. This design flaw literally turns a slow leak into a catastrophic blowout in seconds.

This is a design safety issue, both for Saab, and for any tire manufacturer that sells tires for Saab.

I am going to guess that if you underinflate an OEM Michelin tire on your late-model Saab 9-3 by maybe ten or fifteen percent (not much -- maybe the equivalent of a four hour freeway drive?), this underinflation will allow enough flexing to start this process. Your tire will blow out on the next 45 minute freeway drive you take, maybe one out of three times. Your guesses might vary, but they will still be very high like this.

****

Go check for yourself. Measure your tire tread width and compare that to your wheel rim width. If your sidewall naturally flexes outward and your tread belt can fit inside your rims with a little flexing; you're in trouble.

Owners of new Saabs need to check their tire pressure often. While the wheel rim problem probably doesn't cause blowouts, it does destroy a tire quickly and can destroy the wheel rim quickly as well. If you have a problem while driving, you literally have SECONDS to get your Saab stopped.

+++++ DEFECTIVE TIRES

NOTE: On my last blowout, part of my tire tread belt was wedged inside my wheel rim. The wheel rim edges had cut my tire sidewall free from my tread belt all the way around the rim. It might have taken as long as ten seconds at less than 65 MPH.

I vote for defective tires. Both times, my Michelin sidewalls blew apart at less than 65 MPH. This simply should not happen in normal use, even with a high mileage tire. A tire is defective almost by definition, if the sidewall bubbles, deforms, splits or

separates under normal driving conditions: This is de-facto evidence that the tire is defective. Because tires often cause accidents when they fail in this way, this becomes a safety issue.

I don't know whether all michelin tires are like this or not. All

I know at this point is my own experience, combined the informal reports I've gotten from about tire store service people now, at about a dozen local tire dealerships. Both Michelin and Saab are suspiciously defensive when I've contacted them about replacing my tires.

When I call and tell tire dealers that I have a Saab, local tire dealers steer me away from Michelin tires. They say it's because they've seen some tire failures on Saabs, but they won't get too much more specific than that. Several Dealers also told me that they think around five Michelin tires in a hundred are failing (a very, very high number).

This is 'anecdotal' evidence. I pay attention to it, though -- But again; you can't take information like this to the bank. In the United States, it would take legal examination of proprietary service records on a National scale to establish this as a product safety issue. That doesn't mean it ISN'T a product safety issue, though.

I don't know enough about modern tire manufacturing, merchandising or tire labelling to have these answers quickly. My tires were made in Italy, though. I think I can determine the tire run and get some serial numbers in a day or two.

Yes it would, and thank you. No one at Saab or at Michelin wants to be helpful with this information, and I'm not surprised. It has nothing to do with how "angry" I might be when I call them.

This is a liability issue for them and it's obvious that *no one* wants to be involved.

mb

in article snipped-for-privacy@news.cis.dfn.de, MeatballTurbo at snipped-for-privacy@bouncing-czechs.com wrote on 09/09/2003 15:01:

You should always fit V rated. Think of your safety at 130 MPH plus :)

Paul

In mainland Europe at least, you not only should, you MUST fit tyres with a speed rating exceeding the top speed of your car. This applies even if you don't intend to go anywhere near the top speed.

Mark

Thing is, in the UK. For insurance purposes, you need to fit appropriatley rated tyres to the vehicle. According the owners book i got with the car. They should be H rated (upto 130MPH). Yet Saab themselves say the car should be able to do 130, so surely the next rating up, V ratings, so be applied.

Still got V's fitted now.

In article , snipped-for-privacy@blueyonder.co.uk spouted forth into alt.autos.saab...

Oh BTW, Retro car mag are givng away a Lotus Sunbeam. They made a big thing about fitting ZV1s just before the end of the competition, so likely they are still available somewhere.