Consumer Reports: "Disappointing ION"...

Note that I said fan, not customer. The ordinary customer (who is probably driving an AT) just pushes on the happy pedal until the scenery is passing at an acceptable rate. These people rarely push the car hard enough to make any difference what is under the hood. All the same, they seem to like their Hondas a lot.

Obviously the quantity of air and fuel consumed is proportional to the power demanded from any engine. Friction really isn't a major source of inefficiency. Up to a point, automotive gas engines get more efficient as the throttle is opened wider. What does any of this prove? Nothing. The actual in-use efficiency differences may depend on how/where you drive it and perhaps other factors as well.

what is the point of

Less weight, more compact and yes, better fuel efficiency in normal driving than bigger engines of comparable hp.

weight eng. hp torque mpg

Grand Prix 3484 3.8 V6 200@5200 230@4000 20/30

Accord 3384 3.0 V6 240@6250 212@5000 21/30 200@5200est 200@4000est

The smaller engine has 20% more horsepower and gets slightly better milage (at least when you aren't using that extra horsepower.) The reduced torque can easily be compensated by using a lower first gear and the shift to second will still be at about the same mph. The difference in hp (and the 100 less pounds due in part to the smaller engine) should be pretty decisive in a quarter mile.

Not likely.

I thought the Honda V6 used a chain. (I actually prefer a belt.)

I think they still are. Can't say I ever had a problem with them and they seem to work pretty good at 8K rpm. What more could you want?

Don't really see it as cumbersome. Pretty invisible mostly except for the effect on performance.

I am not entirely sure what you are saying here but I am a regular reader of the Honda boards and I can't recall ever seeing a complaint about a VTEC problem. Not too many complaints about oil consumption either - unlike the Saturn group.

if they did not bring their cars in on those check

It seems like you are saying that the first warning of low oil pressure is a code for the VTEC. I don't know if that is true or not but if it is, it is hardly a problem with the VTEC system.

Engine longevity is one of the things people rave about in the Honda group. Maybe they don't hit the rev limiter as often as I do, but mine is still going strong after 10 years and 125K.

And if I didn't put gas in the tank, it wouldn't move at all. What is your point?

What's an Is1?

So what you are saying is that to go slower than 80 in 6th, you have to use the brakes? I think GM needs to turn the idle down a tad. LOL. The fact that you would even think this is true does not say much for your judgement.

How about not having to replace a cap and rotor every now and then. Geez, even *GM* figured out DIS in the 80's. Caps and rotors suck. They wear out, they're moisture sensitive, and they need to be replaced every now and then. 225,000 miles later, my Saturn STILL has it's origional coils and module....

Other than VTEC being a shitty way to do variable timing? IMHO, the ONLY reason Honda even retains that ass backward setup is because of the marketing value it has...

Oh wow!!!! Your magic Honda motor lasted 125k? I can't think of a car engine today that doesn't last at least that long.

Hondas are dogs? I think that's it. Hey, go to the local 1/4 and see who's running fast. It's not the Civics and Accords.

Corvette motor. Still pushrod, still 2 valve per cylinder, still competitive. IIRC, about 350 - 400hp depending on year. Note that's far above any Honda street car motor, yet the mileage is STILL quite comperable. Wake me up when a production Honda turns it's numbers and gets it's mileage. Hell, wake me up if/when honda finally bothers to make a V8. Even *toyota* makes one now...

Same power at 4k instead of being wasted at 8k. Duh

And chain to no doubt.

No kidding. When was the last time he actually owned a domestic? 1915? (dont bother answering satyr/troll, I wont see it)

All good points Philip but I'm afraid they fall on deaf ears with satyr. I looked this guy up in google groups and I didnt see anything useful that he has contributed to the group what so ever. I added him to the same filter misterfact is on some time back. He's actually worse than misterfact because not only will he ignore every point made in a post but he will flat out molest and manipulate every word you wrote to meet his personal agenda which is to fill his ego. To really understand his twisted level of thinking and reasoning you would have to hit yourself in the head way to many times... There is a word for his kind, its called "troll". If you stop fanning his flames he'll freeze and disappear.

We were talking about the effectiveness of ignition caps and rotors. They don't produce any power. Try to pay attention.

I think there is some doubts about that. Google this group for timing chain failure.

In your opinion.

LOL. Philip is the one who snipped the relevant parts out of the post so that you didn't even understand what I was saying (see cap and rotor comment above.) As for distortion, how about his comment about VTEC being troublesome but when called on it he mumbles something about it not working if there is low oil pressure. And it is clear from my comment that my engine didn't just last 125K, it is still going strong despite the severe use I give it. I realize that most engines can last longer than 125K these days, but most aren't driven as hard as I do mine and it could still easily go 225K.

Of course you didn't even follow your own advice. I am not a troll by my definition anyway. A troll posts intentionally inflammatory rhetoric (not heartfelt beliefs) usually to multiple, adversarial newsgroups and then never responds to any of it. Maybe your definition is anyone who dares to disagree with you. Of course, you aren't even reading this because you plonked me, right?

Yeah, replacing the cap and rotor every 60K is a real burden. Of course, Honda ignition wires seem to last about 3X longer than Saturn so that's a plus.

And I hear you have to change the oil every 3K in a Saturn. At least if you don't want to put a new timing chain on it. But hey, we can go piece by piece or we can just see what the Consumer Reports survey says about engine reliability. Oh look, Civic (or any other Honda) engines are much more reliable than Saturn (S series) engines.

This is pure BS. VTEC engines are at the very top in terms of specific output in production atmo engines. They are at the top in reliability. (You can't give an example of even a single VTEC failure). They are fuel efficient in relation to the power they produce. But the valve control system is "shitty" and "ass backward."

Saturn S series. Especially if you don't change the oil every 3K.

As for my car, sorry I don't have 225K on it, but it doesn't see many highway miles. Mostly high speed and crawling urban commuting.

What are you comparing? Modified cars - no relevance to 99+% of owners including myself. Stock Corvette vs. Accord? Well, I would hope the Corvette is faster. If you compare apples with apples or stock Accord vs. Grand Prix like I was comparing before... Here are test results from Car and Driver:

Eng. 0-60 1/4 mile top speed Accord EX Coupe 3.0 V6 5.9 14.5 135 Grand Prix GT2 3.8 V6 8.1 16.2 109

Hey, what happened to all the torque from that 3.8? The marketing department must have really worked on that Accord V6.

Gee,

Honda may make one in the future or they may not. It doesn't concern me because I am not likely to buy any vehicle which would use one. I bet

Bringggg....Bringgggggg

Ed

You forgot to mention it has a turbo so... Its not making s*** for torque or hp compaired to a sbc with a turbo. Fairly gutless motor which only confirms the saying "no replacement for displacement."

...yeah, I figured with a hp number over double the torque number it was living on boost (especially with such small displacement)...

What is "compaired to a sbc with a turbo" ?

I think the Indy Car formula has a pretty low boost limit.

The best Honda racing engines were the 1987 F1 engines when the boost was unrestricted. The 1.5L V6s made 1300hp for qualifying. Race power was about 1100hp but the driver could turn a rotary switch to get an extra 100hp for passing. The racing director, Nabuhiko Kawamota claimed that the could have gotten another 200hp out of it if the boost hadn't been restricted in 1988. Kawamota later became the President of HMC.