Long Life Oil for the Saturn EcoTec 2.2 Liter Engine...

If the article recommended SAE 5W-30, why are you going to buy 0W-40?

RC

available...Do

Quite likely, with synthetic oil you could get away with changing the oil significantly less often. However, the oil change interval in the oil-life monitoring system for Ecotec-engined cars in North America assumes the use of conventional oil.

Also, 30,000 km is a best-case interval - non-ideal driving conditions such as cold starts or heavy engine loads will cause the oil life monitoring system to request an oil change sooner, as the Opel article says. In particular, synthetic oil does not deteriorate as quickly as conventional, but it can still become contaminated by engine blow-by and condensation.

Kirk, ya might wanna check out your oil viscosity again. I would only use the viscosity that Saturn recommends, (unless you are driving under extreme conditions that require different). There is a reason they recommend 5w-30.

As far as using Mobil 1 synthetic, I have been using it for years and highly recommend it for any engine applicable, BUT - NEVER - exceed the recommended oil change cycle. Most ppl make this mistake when using synthetic because of the myth that you can go longer between oil changes. You can and most likely will ultimately cause damage to your engine if you dont change any oil at the recommended intervals.

Those aren't articles, they're flyers from Opel regarding their cars with the EcoTec 2.2 Liter engine, the same one as Saturn uses for all of its 2.2 Liter engines.

As to why buy the 0W-40?

Because the information that I listed in the URLs below (which are from Opel, the "manufacturer" of the EcoTec 2.2 Liter engines) states that the long life oil has to meet General Motors spec GM-LL-A-025.

Mobil 1 5W-30 does NOT state on the bottle, or Mobil's Website, or in the Opel information, that it meets GM-LL-A-025. Mobil 1 0W-40 states on the bottle, at Mobil's website and in the Opel information, that it indeed meets GM-LL-A-025.

I'm trying to get the groups insights as to why GM is not telling us United States folks that we could be using 0W-40 Mobil 1 in our 2.2 Liter Saturns, and changing oil 1/3 as often.

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This is my point. For the SAME 2.2 Liter EcoTec engine, GM recommends 5W-30 oil for the United States market, but recommends Synthetic 0W-40 Mobil 1 (among other oils) as meeting GM-LL-A-025, and therefore useable for extended drain intervals.

But (he says, stammering),

GM is RECOMMENDING extended oil change cycles for the SAME 2.2 Liter engine if you use an oil which meets GM-LL-A-025, and Mobil 1 0W-40 does!

This is why I'm asking what people think.

Is the oil weighting system the same in Europe as here? ...I was thinking there might be a parallel like US gallons and Imperial gallon...

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It appears to be. If I go to my local Wal-Mart, I can grab a bottle of 0W-40 Mobil 1 that states, right on the bottle, that it meets GM-LL-A-025.

Now, there could be some things that impact why there is a difference:

1) The US market has to meet the Corporate Average Fuel Economy figures. I'm not sure whether the European market has anything similar. 5W-30 is thinner at running temperatures than 0W-40, so an engine using 5W-30 will get slightly better mileage. Because that really matters in the US market, GM might be saying to use a 5W-30 oil here and change it more often. In the European market, GM might recommend a thicker oil as being a bit more protective (and provide some margin to thinning) and able to last longer. 2) Is there something in US gasoline (due to EPA regulations) that in the blow-by process, gets in to the oil and has to be removed (by changing oil) more often than European gasoline?

I'm asking these questions because I'd like to get to the bottom of why the same engine gets different oil change recommendations in different markets. Smells fishy to me...

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Could it also be that part of the reason is the US consumer is much quicker to hire a lawyer when things do not work (no matter if it is the consumers fault or the companies). If they recommend the longer mileage between oil changes and people have engine problems guess who has to foot the bill. Though if they stick with the shorter mileage between oil changes their liability decreases. I would say it is just a matter of money why they stick with the shorter mileage between oil changes and the type of oil they recommend.

Jim

Trivial, yes. Interesting? Debatable.

The fact that GM of Europe and GM of North America recommend different oil viscosities and change intervals for the same engine is not that big a deal. There are significant differences in climate and driving duty cycle that contribute to valid reasons for these differences.

And I'll let you in on a dirty little secret that could get me fired if "they" find out I told. American engineers and European engineers don't always agree

100% on how things should be done. That may shock you, but it is true.

Now, in Europe it doesn't get as cold as it does some places in North America, so they can get away with the 40 weight part of that range. It also doesn't get as hot as does in our South and Southwest, so they can get away with the 0 weight part of the range. You want to try something validated for European driving conditions, that is your business, just don't ask me to condone it.

Alan King

I don't think it's a major contributor to the difference in oil change intervals, but I believe North American gas does tend to contain more sulfur than European gas, which does contribute to oil contamination because it causes acids to form when the gas is burned. This is going to be changing over the next couple of years as tighter regulations on sulfur content in gas come into effect in the US and Canada.

Probably due to automotive cultural differences here versus in Europe. In the US, people are conditioned to the 3000 mile oil change, and also aren't used to looking for manufacturer-specific ratings on the oil that they buy (and how many car owners in the US even read the owner's manuals of their cars?). Also, even dealers (not necessarily GM dealers) have been known to put the incorrect oil (not the correct SAE grade or API/ACEA/manufacturer rating) in cars that they service. While some owners may be willing to look for the hard to find oil that meets the specifications for the long oil change interval, would the costs associated with owners who put in the wrong oil (either warranty claims or bad press from denied warranty claims) be too much of a problem for a GM division selling mainstream (i.e. not expensive or exotic) vehicles?

The following URL:

may be of interest. The people behind it ran a Camaro for 18000 miles on Mobil 1, doing oil analysis every 1000 miles.

states:

The following is directly from saab cars USA and provided for your information. Home | E-mail us

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I recently purchased a Vue. One feature of the Vue is the oil change indicator that supposedly figures the oil change interval by measuring a number of parameter (engine starts, miles, etc, but not actual oil condition). The salesman took great pride in telling me about the system and showed me how to reset it. Then he told me to ignore it and change the oil every 3000 miles in order to maintain my warranty. I am surprised he didn't remind me to get a new buggy whip every 3000 miles as well.

Regards,

Ed White

"Timothy J. Lee" wrote:

agree.

Yes, but two engineers working in the same place on the same project generally speak the same language and will either come to some type of agreement or their bosses will negotiate it for them. Two engineers speaking different languages, working for different organizations, separated by oceans run into maddening roadblocks when disagreements occur.

Uh, yes you would. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote those two paragraphs, but I certainly transposed the oil viscosity vs. temperature arguments.

Alan King

I thought I have this understood some years ago but now I am questioning myseld again. So what does 0W40 really mean? For example "0 W" mean weight? and 40 is viscosity in what unit (poise?). I am using 5W30 how does it diff than 0W40. Please explain.

cSt = Kinematic Viscosity, centistokes (mm**2/sec) see

. For MObil 1 0W40 -

cSt @ 40º C = 80 cSt @ 100º C = 14.3

see

For Mobil 1 5W30 -

cSt @ 40º C = 56 cSt @ 100º C = 10

see

For CHEVRON SUPREME SYNTHETIC BLEND MOTOR OIL SAE 5W-30, -

cSt at 40°C = 64.5 cSt at 100°C = 10.8

see

$FILE/PCMO-25.pdf For Havoline® Synthetic Motor Oil SAE 5W-30 -

cSt at 40°C = 58.1 cSt at 100°C = 10.5

$FILE/PCMO-2220.pdf HAVOLINE® MOTOR OIL, 5W-30 -

cSt at 40°C = 64.8 cSt at 100°C = 10.8

see

They ultimately work for the *SAME* organization, GM. However, your point is well taken. The cars are in different countries with different rules which can result in different engineering criteria.

A *HYPOTHETICAL* example:

Let's say that you design a car for the US market. In that market, corporate average fuel economy really, REALLY matters. And, your engine will work with a 30 weight oil (at the high temps - let's not address the low temp issue just now) but you'll have to change it relatively often to make sure that it doesn't get much thinner. And, by running 30 weight, you get to sell a few more thousand Hummers at $80k a pop (I imagine about $50k of that is profit) because of the slightly better mileage your cars are getting. So, you recommend 5W-30 with frequent changes for this market.

In Europe, presume (I have no clue whether this is true or not) that there aren't corporate average fuel economy numbers to worry about. But, you CAN make a better name for yourself in the market place by advertising less frequent oil changes and, in the European market, THAT sells more cars. Voila! 0W-40 is what you recommend, because it gives you a bit of a margin on the viscosity of the oil, and you don't care if the mileage is a bit lower.

I STRONGLY suspect that the difference between the two recommendations is VERY carefully thought out, based on economics that benefit GM (as opposed to the consumer).

Ain't open and free discussion/debate wonderful?

W

means:

At low temperatures ("W' means Winter), the first number gives the viscosity CURVE for the oil.

At engine operational temperatures, the second number gives the viscosity CURVE for the oil.

What the hell is a viscosity CURVE you ask?

Well, a 5 weight oil will be thin at low temperatures, and thinner still at high temperatures. The relation between temperature and thinness of the oil is its curve.

A 40 weight oil will be thick at low temperatures, and thinner at high temperatures. It too has a temperature-thinness relationship that is different from the 5 weight oil.

I presume that an IDEAL oil would be equally thin at low and high temperatures. This means that, at low temperatures, it would be as thin as a low weight oil, and at high temperatures, it would be as thin as a high weight oil.

So, the multi-viscosity oils more closely approach the ideal of an oil that is equally thin at whatever temperature than straight weight oils.

Hope this makes sense. - k.