'96 Legacy 2.2 - major engine problem

Hi everyone -- I haven't read this group in awhile, but it was a big help in my deciding to purchase my used '96 Legacy, in March of 2002. The car was basically "mint" with only 46,000 miles when I bought it from a local Subaru dealer. The previous (original) owner also bought the car there and the dealer had a complete record of its service history, which showed the car was exceptionally well-maintained.

Anyway, so far I couldn't be happier with the car. I have nothing but good things to say about it and it has run like a watch since I bought it -- up until a few weeks ago when the engine began "missing" while idling at stop lights, etc. As soon I accelerated, the roughness would disappear, but then a few days later the car began to miss & sputter sometimes during acceleration as well -- until the "Check Engine" light finally came on. It stayed lit for 2 days, during which time the car ran completely normally (no missing at all), then the CE light was off the next time I started the car. It remained off for 3 or 4 days (car still running normally), then came back on right after the engine began missing again while idling at a stoplight. Once again, as I powered away from the stop, the engine smoothed out. Got to the next stoplight (about 1000' down the road) and car beagn to idle EXTREMELY roughly, as though it wanted to stall -- and then got worse when I accelerated, at which time the CE light then began *flashing*. I pulled in to my work- place (only another few feet down the road), turned off the car and went into work. Lunchtime, 4 hours later, the car started right up, idled smoothly, though the CE light was still on (but not flashing anymore).

Left work that night, engine alternated between smooth/normal and missing during the short ride home. I then brought it to my regular mechanic who put it on his computer, which showed a misfire on cylinder #4. He suggested & did a complete tune-up (new wires, etc.). The car then ran fine for almost 2 weeks until the symptoms reappeared (but NO "Check Engine" light). Two days later brought it back to my mechanic (the CE light finally came back on on my way there). Once again, the computer reported a misfire on #4, so this time he replaced the coil pack (at the suggestion of a Subaru dealer he called). Later that day, he called to say the car was ready and that he had test driven it (even getting stuck in traffic, with plenty of idling time), and that the car seemed to be running fine. No sooner then I go and pick it up, it starts doing the same thing at idle, before I can even get out of his lot, and also on acceleration. So, I turned right around and went back. He then apologized and told me just to take it to Subaru (though he had also warned me earlier that if the coil pack didn't fix it, I was going to have to let a Subaru tech diagnose it). So... I immediately drove the car to Bill Kolb Subaru, a few miles away (not the dealer I bought it from, which is more than twice as far). I explained the problem to the

2nd "chief" service tech there and also told him what had already been done to the car. He was EXTREMEY accomodating -- sympathetic, even -- and they took the car right in, even though it was getting to closing time for the service department. After about 45 minutes he asked me if I could leave the car overnight so they could continue to diagnose it the next day (last Thursday).

So, Thursday, just before leaving work, he finally called to tell me that they went through EVERY possibility for a misfire on #4 -- and that it turns out, unfortunately, to be a problem with the VALVE GUIDES on that cylinder (becoming "unseated", I think, or something -- I still don't really understand it), and that the entire thing has to be replaced, cost: $1,539.00 (I thought I was going to literally pass-out; my wife said I looked as white as a sheet when she picked me up after work). He said it was very rare for this to happen and that he's only seen it two other times in the years he's been with Subaru -- and then only on engines with more than 100,000 miles (my car has only 63K on it). When I asked "why" it happens/what could've caused it, he said there really isn't an answer for that; that it can just "happen" sometimes. Just out of curiosity, I also wanted to know why the engine wouldn't be misfiring/running rough ALL the time (rather than "just" MOST of the time) and why the tune-up I had done seemed to "cure" the problem for 2 weeks, but they didn't really have an answer for this either.

The next night (last Friday), I went on the internet to see if I could find any reports of bad valve guides on Subaru 2.2 engines. I was just about to give up when I found a site called automotiveforums.com. Within less than 20 minutes of searching, I found at least * 5 * other Subaru owners who've had the same experience with the same symptoms ('95-'97 model years, if I remember correctly), and the same difficulty with their regular mechanics attempting to diagnose/fix it. All of these other folks, however, seem to have had WELL over 100K on their cars when this happened. Again, I only have 63K on my '96 Legacy. (...and to think of all the damn research I did befoe I bought this car -- I thought my eyes were going to blow out of my head!)

Please forgive me for the length of this post (and for my technical ignorance too), but I really wanted to know if any Subaru owners here have experienced this same problem with valve guides or have *heard* of others who have -- especially with only 63,000 miles. Do you know WHAT causes it/HOW it occurs? Could it have been a problem with the original manufacturing of the engine (the Subaru tech says not)? Also, why wouldn't the engine run badly >100%< of the time, rather than, say,

75% of the time as it did (and why did that tune-up seem to cure it for a couple of weeks)? ANY answers, advice, opinions are greatly appreciated. Thanks for listening! (Guess it'll be a Nisson or something next time, but I really love(d) this car)

Best, Jeff D.

Reply to
JeffD
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Do the symptoms ever appear when the car is cold/(less than 10 minutes of drive time?) Or, in other words, does it ONLY happen when the car is hot?

Has the fuel pressure regulator been checked? The crank or cam angle sensors could be failing intermittently and it may be coincidence that the first misfire code is cyl#4.

Anyway, you might consider giving you first mech. a chance at confirming Subaru's diagnosis and see how much he would charge to swap in a rebuilt engine.

I'd proceed cautiously.

Carl

1 Lucky Texan

JeffD wrote:

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

Post this problem on The Gartland.com Subaru Forum and hope LSG replies. Like you, I'm somewhat lerry of the diagnosis. I've seen similiar problems posted elsewhere. Solutions ranged from a cracked intake manifold vacuum line to a loose spark plug. I've never read about a valve guide loosing, although I guess it is possible. Anyways, before i spent a dime on this repair, I'd listen to LSG's suggestions.

Reply to
johninKY

JD,

I don't have the answer, just some perspective. Bearing in mind that money doesn't grow on trees, your news isn't that bad. It's a nine year old car! Regardless of its mileage and brand, you're gonna have to do some engine work on a nine year old car.

Also, the car is probably paid for. Before I spent $1500, you should get a second opinion from another Subaru dealer. But, if you need to spend that amt of money on a car that's paid for and will go for several more years with the repair, it's well worth it. Heck, $1500 is less than 4 months of car payments on an inexpensive used car.

In 02, we bought a mint, but very high mileage 99 Subaru Outback. We immediately needed to spend about $2,000 for new brakes/rotors, drive belts, timing belt, t-belt tensioner, water pump and cam seal. Nothing had broken - it was just preventive maintenance. I still love the car and feel like we came out way ahead b/c we factored in most of the service in our purchase price and the car will last for many more years.

My two cents, LK

JeffD wrote:

bought

bought

stoplight

anymore).

cylinder

mechanic

automotiveforums.com.

difficulty

Reply to
lkreh

Let this be a lesson to all, WHEN THE CEL COMES ON GET A DIAGNOSIS IMMEDIATELY. TG

Reply to
TG

I had exactly the same symptoms and CEL code on my 1998 Forester back when it had 72,000 miles on it. The dealership diagnosed it as an intermttent short on the plug wire on cyl #4. They replaced the plug wires and it cured the problem.

Reply to
George Adams

guide loosing, although I guess it is possible.

Thanks for the info, although, as I said, my search on that automotive forums site found 5 different owners who experienced the same problem/ diagnosis w/ their Subarus. Of course, I was leary too when the tech called me with the news, but I went over there and they physically showed me the problem (my car was still up on the lift). I was still leary even then, since we've all heard horror stories about dealer service departments, but when I read the above reports from other owners, I felt a bit "better" (if you can call it that), at least as far as not being scammed. owners

I already authorized the work when they showed me inside the engine. In fact, I just got back from picking up the car. I will, however, take a look at the forum you recommended anyway. And thanks again.

Best, Jeff

Reply to
JeffD

jeff,

i'd suspect electrical issues, rather than mechanical issues. all four of my plug wires at the moment are intermittently arcing, causing much the same type of response. i just haven't gotten around to replacing them, but that will happen this weekend.

i suspect that in my case, the excessive salt used by the DOT exacerbates the problem. don't know if you live in an area where salt on the roads is used and necessary.

tim

Reply to
Tim

Hi Tim, New plugs & wires were among part of the tune-up, the first thing done to correct the problem by my regular mechanic - and which were later ispected by the Subaru service to make sure they were fine. As I said, I found reports from 5 other Subaru owners who had the same problem as me, and finally the same diagnosis. Thanks for your suggestion though!

Jeff

Reply to
JeffD

Plus, your car's mileage is so low that the body is probably very good, so investing in the engine might be quite worthwhile. Sorry you're experiencing this trauma, though, but you seem to have an otherwise solid vehicle that might be worth keeping/repairing.

Reply to
KLS

Reply to
Edward Hayes

Reply to
Hallan Blaggit

I would like to know how anyone without removing the cylinder head can state "Your problem is a dropped valve guide."

I see you also haven't bothered to visit that other site I recommended. Too bad as LSG is a master at diagnostics.

Reply to
johninKY

Since it is only bad valve guides couldn't you simply put new heads on it, or have the old heads reworked. If you could probably have the work done at a shop somewhere near you for around $1000. That probably wouldn't include the costs you've already incurred diagnosing the problem up to this point.

Reply to
rwessley

They did do that -- though the tech said it was the last thing they checked for (in trying to diagnose the problem) because it was "rare", and he hadn't thought that would've been the problem.

Actually I did "bother", or at least I tried. The URL, "Gartland.com" brings me to some guy's personal webpage from Minnesota, nothing to do with Subarus, and "TheGartland.com" doesn't exist. Meanwhile I found the Ultimate Subaru message board and looked around there for awhile.

_As I said_ in the original post, I did find 5 other Legacy owners on automotiveforums.com who experienced the SAME symptoms as my car, had the same initial trial & error (mis) diagnosis, with all ending up to have the SAME valve guides failure --although I believe they all had well over 100K on their cars (whereas I have only 63K).

The work has now already been done (cylinder head replaced); the car runs fine, I'm out the money. At this point I just want to know how/ why it happened and exactly HOW common or "rare" it really is, that's all -- or if it's some sort of "hush-hush" semi-rare problem that Subaru knows about. But thanks again -- and thanks to all of those who responded.

Best, Jeff

Reply to
JeffD

Having a valve guide come loose most be very rare as I have never heard of it before. The valve guide is just sort of a hollow tube that is a press fit in the cylinder head. The OD of the guide was slightly too small or the hole in the head was slightly too large or the head cracked around the valve guide. These are about the only ways I can think of a guide coming loose. I also guess it is possible the stem of the valve welded itself to the guide and the valve action then ripped the guide loose. Glad to hear the engine has been repaired. Sory to hear it had to cost so much.

Reply to
johninKY

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zbenson

Reply to
zbenson

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