Oil in a 150K Outback

Hi,

If the engine has little appreciable oil consumption, and oil pressure is sufficient (does the car have a pressure gauge?) I'd stick with whatever the book recommends. If you don't have the book, go to

for recommendations. I'd go for something at the heavier end of the spectrum for summer use.

OTOH, if your car shows some of its miles, you might want to go a little heavier than what the book calls for. I've had good luck with Chevron Delo 400 15W-40 in mine. It actually holds oil pressure in SoCal (100+ deg F) summer weather than some of the 20W-50s that I've used in the past--we don't really have "winter" where I am, so I'm concerned with hot performance much more than cold. Don't know if the Chevron's available on the East Coast. If not, Mobil has Delvac and Shell has Rotella in the same weight. All of these 15W-40s were originally designed for diesel use, but have gasoline ratings, too. For the naysayers who will warn against using these oils in a gasoline engine (there are some), I'll only say my engine's got 336k miles and is doing just fine.

You're gonna get as many opinions on which oil (brand, weight, type) to use as you receive answers, so you've gotta experiment a little to see what works best for you.

Good luck,

Rick

The only thing I could add to Rick's post is, if your car is burning a little oil and you find yourself topping off the oil regularly DO NOT be tempted to think "Well, I've been putting oil in more often so I can go longer between oil changes". In an engine with worn piston rings (and other componenets) you get increased 'blow-by'. One thing this causes is gasoline fumes from the compression stroke getting into the oil reducing it's effective viscosity. Keep up the maintainence schedule to get the contaminated oil out.

Carl

1 Lucky Texan

Rick Courtright wrote:

Rick:

Wow!

Did you use 15w-40 from the beginning? Any additives in the oil, or perhaps gas?

Your milage is remarkable!

How frequently did you do oil changes? Any particular oil filter brand? Also, is your engine the 2.5l or 2.2l, or some other.

I am asking all these questions because I have a fairly new Impreza 2.2L, barely broken-in, and was thinking whether I should use synthetic, or semi-synthetic. The "diesel-type" option sounds interesting (surely these are excellent quality oils).

I have used mineral Valvoline 10w-30, so far.

s.z.

Hi,

Let's see if I can answer all your questions... sorry if it turns into a ramble!

I bought this car with 209k miles on it. It's a '90 Loyale with a 1.8l, non-turbo, a 4wd, 5spd wagon. The guy who had it before me was a little less than religious with some of his maintenance. He drove it on a lot of dirt roads, and it burned oil at about 1 qt/1200-1400 miles. Since it doesn't smoke, and passes smog testing ok, I've always assumed this to be a function of dead valve seals, and maybe valve guide wear cuz of the gobs of fine dust the car was breathing all the time. PCV system's been checked, valve replaced at regular intervals and all, so I'm sticking with the worn seals idea.

I used several brands and types of oil when I first got the car. I've used Castrol GTX for years, so I started with it, in 10W-30 (book recommendation.) Oil pressure ran at the bare minimum (according to the gauge and book figures) and that kinda bothered me. Next I tried 10W-40,

20W-50 in Castrol, and Mobil 1 15W-50 synthetic. Then someone here on the group, an auto shop instructor, suggested Delo 400. I tried it and have been using it since, almost 100k miles.

Oil pressure with the Delo 400 is better than other brands except the Mobil 1, oil consumption has remained pretty predictable at 1 qt/1200 miles regardless of conditions. Even though the "diesel" oils are supposed to clean somewhat better than gasoline oils, I've added Rislone about every 10k miles to help quiet the famous valve tapping noises. About 20k miles ago, I switched over to Marvel Mystery Oil at each oil change, using Bill Putney's advice. It's done a better job of quieting the valves, and judging by how quickly the oil turns black since starting to use it, there's still a lot of crud in the engine that't being cleaned out.

Oil filters and change intervals: Subies seem to be more particular about filters than other cars I've owned or serviced. I've had the best luck with Subie OEM filters, though I use Purolator (they make the Subie filter) and NAPA Gold as backups if I can't get to the Subie dealer. Some will advise against using the orange Fram filters: I won't condemn Fram across the board, since I've used their filters with no problems in other cars, but will agree they're probably not the best choice for a Subie. I TRY to adhere to 3,000 mile change intervals, but because of my driving patterns, a couple of changes may go 4500-5000 miles each year. I don't worry too much about that, cuz those particular miles are usually in 5-6 week intervals.

Now a couple of things have changed since my car was built which might affect your choices. On mine, 5W-30 oil was only recommended in winter, and there's a warning about not using it for extended high-spd driving. And somewhere I found a TSB or other letter from SOA that said Subaru does NOT recommend synthetic oil in my car.

Today, I believe Subaru's basic oil recommendation is a 5W-30, with

10W-30 as an alternative "summer" recommendation. I don't know if they recommend anything heavier, or what their position on synthetics is today. Lots of people are using them in newer engines, and most report pretty good results. While the change intervals outside the US are increasing, ours here are still pretty much the old 3000 mile standard for "severe" service, which, when you read the book, consists of driving the car under the conditions most of us see every day. Some will claim that's a marketing trick to sell more oil. I won't argue that, but I also know we don't always get the best oil in the world here in the States, so the shorter change intervals just seem to be cheap insurance to me. Regardless of oil choice, you need to adhere to the book change intervals while you're under warranty, which might make synthetics a less economically viable choice, depending on your budget and attitudes toward these things!

So if I were you, I'd probably not put the heavier "diesel" oils in your car at this time. They won't HURT anything, but you may find fuel economy actually drops since they're heavier than what a new engine's designed for, and if you live somewhere that has a REAL winter, you might experience some starting problems. But for a high mileage engine, they seem to work well. You could always try one of the "diesel" oils for one or two change intervals and keep good records to see if there's any downside in fuel economy, too. If so, go back to lighter oil--if not, make your choice whichever way you wish.

Sorry to go on and on, but hope this helps! Just remember these are only one person's experience with one car, so YMMV!

Rick

Rick:

(...)

kinda bothered me. Next I tried 10W-40,

group, an auto shop instructor,

Thanks for the reply Rick.

I am in Reno, where we have cold winters and probably

15w-40 is not the way to go with a low milage car, but I have lived in Las Vegas for years and had good results with 20w-50 Castrol, and Valvoline straight 40- for summer. This was with a GM 2.8 V6 engine that has made so far 170k- not bad for a 1989 GM product. 1, oil consumption has remained pretty >predictable at 1 qt/1200 miles regardless of conditions.

a better job of quieting the valves, and

I use MMO occasionally in the gas, usually small amounts. Helps keep things clean. I believe in two other products: Berrymans B12 Chemtool- this is an excellent and inexpensive product for cleaning injectors. Walmart has it for only $2.37 a bottle. It is very strong though, works great on GM cars, but never tried it on anything else. I also believe in Restore Engine Restorer, used it several times and seems to do a good job in restoring/ evening out compression, so the engine runs smoother and regains some lost power.

filters than other cars I've owned or serviced. >I've had the best luck with Subie OEM filters, though I use >Purolator (they make the Subie filter) and NAPA Gold as >backups if I can't get to the Subie dealer. Some will advise

other cars, but will agree they're probably not

but because of my driving patterns, a

for extended high-spd driving.

NOT recommend synthetic oil in my car.

if they recommend anything >heavier, or what their position on synthetics is

My 2000 Impreza manual recommends heavier oils for extreme weather conditions or for towing.

results. While the change intervals outside >the US are increasing, ours here are still pretty much the old >3000 mile standard for "severe" service, which, when you read >the book, consists of driving the car under the conditions most

oil. I won't argue that, but I also know we don't >always get the best oil in the world here in the

me. Regardless of oil choice, you need to adhere

synthetics a less economically viable choice, >depending on your budget and attitudes toward these things!

fuel economy actually drops since they're

to work well. You could always try one of >the "diesel" oils for one or two change intervals and keep good >records to see if there's any downside in fuel economy, too. If >so, go back to lighter oil--if not, make your choice whichever >way you wish.

Thanks, it is always a good thing to learn what others are doing, and share some information in the process. I wish you plenty more miles on your Subie! Don't forget to report back when you hit the 400k mark.

s.z.

Hi,

I've seen Restore advertised for years, but I think you're the first person I've found who's actually used it. I read a can at the parts store once, and it looked like you are supposed to use it with each oil change.

Is that how you've used it, or did you put it in once, go a few changes, then use it again? Results in the ads, of course, look pretty impressive, but it's always good to hear from folks who've got ~real life~ experience!

Thanks!

Rick

The solution lies in your knowing how to read the successive posts - no extra lines are necessary to decipher who said what.

The clues are in the '>' marks. If C is responding to B who responded to A, then you will see formating like this:

[whatever C wrote]

It's generally encouraged for successive posters to delete previous posts except for what he/she is directly responding to (also optionally leaving in what may be needed from previous posts for context).

UserEddie did something else very useful - and that is interleaving his comments with the various comments that he is replying to (again - you can distinguish his remarks from what he is responding to by the fact that there are no '>' marks before his lines of comment). That keeps things in immediate context so you don't have to search around in the entire previous post to figure out what he is commenting on

Things do get confusing when some people in a given thread top post and others bottom post - but that's going to happen no matter how much people complain about top posters. The key to knowing who said what and in what order will **always** be the '>' marks.

Now that you know the "code", try reading back thru and see if things make more sense.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Bill Putney, 7/8/03 20:32 :

I master the code. Have you read the post yourself? There are ">" digged right in the paragraph so the color codes get mixed up.

Now I see that this is most probably because of line wraps he was caught with, so you have to read the whole thing to see what he was answering to.

1, oil consumption has remained pretty >predictable at 1 qt/1200 miles regardless of conditions.

Who answers what here? No one...

The post needed a clean up before sending... And I definitely needed a coffee break at that time. ;) Sorry for being so picky. I just had a hard time reading through.

-- Thierry NOTE: Remove 'NOSPAM' from the reply-to address to contact directly

I"ve used it both ways and can say that there is a definitive cumulative effect.

If you use it consequtively, say several oil changes in a row, the effect is greater and lasts longer. By that I mean you can go one oil change, or perhaps even two, without the Restorer and still feel a difference.

My experience is with use in an engine that has relatively good compression, overall, but runs a bit rough due to uneven compression among cylinders (one cylinder is particularly problematic). It uses very little oil without the Restorer and nearly none with it.

Regards, s.z.

ps. to the guy that had problems reading my reply: Sorry, my browser is set rather narrow and it breaks the quoted text line if too long. I did leave empty lines before and after replies.

And I wouldn't expect that to be manually cleaned up. The fact is you can still fairly easily distinguish UserEddie's comments from the previous poster's by the total lack of '>' marks on UserEddie's lines.

Yep - not much that could be done about that other than manually editing every line, but again, all the visual clues that are needed are there.

OK

I've seen a lot worse - such as people leaving all previous 150 lines of thread dialogue with no trimming, and a one line comment at the very end (or at the very beginning depending on top/bottom posting). I know I can get careless if I'm running against the clock in order not to be late for work - it's either make the post or not make the post because there's not time to really clean it up.

Well I certainly hope you feel better! 8^)

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

:-)

Winter... Summer... Here in Montreal, Qc, Canada we have temperatures dropping to minus 31F in winter and going up to 95F in the summer... Quite a range.

I'd like to know what oil I should put into my 95 Legacy Wagon this summer until the cold weather comes. Subaru recommends 5w30 always. Is that crazy with such a temperature range?

Thanks!

-- Thierry NOTE: Remove 'NOSPAM' from the reply-to address to contact directly

I have been using 0w-30 in the winter, and I think I used it last summer. This summer I went with 5w-30 since I couldn't find any Mobil 1 0W.

nate

Hi,

I think a lot depends on your engine... as I was describing to UserEddie, a nice tight engine MAY see some drop in fuel economy if one uses too heavy an oil for the conditions. OTOH, I've always been a bit paranoid about oil pressure (spun a bearing in a '61 MGA way back when and it made an impression???) and like to go on the heavier side, so I'd personally be inclined to use the 10W-30 (if using dino oil) from late spring into early fall given the temps you mention. Here where I am in SoCal, there are summer days when 95 deg F seems COOL. I feel for the engines...

OTOH, a friend uses 5W-30 Mobil 1 year round in a V-10 Ford Super Duty pickup, and even when we load it up pretty well and take it to the desert during the summer, there's no apparent change in oil pressure or consumption, so that might be a good choice, too!

Best of luck!

Rick

If you don't mind one more opinion (but it isn't much different than the advice already offered): I wouldn't use 5W-30 in conventional oil at any time, especially in warmer weather - too many compromises (viscosity extenders) to get the '5W' part of the spec. If you're using a good synthetic, then no problem in using 5W-30 all year around as you don't have the same compromises in the oil formulation.

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

I tried 2 or 3 different weights of synthetic when I first got my '99 Legacy Outback and I found that Mobil 1 15W-30, always kept topped up, reduced the warmup valve clatter to a minimum. I suspect that the 0W and 5W stuff is largely a gimmic to improve EPA mileage. I admit that I'm an old fart and have an irrational suspicion against water-thin oils.

Jim

From one OF to another... I'm not sure you're off base! A couple of years ago, the Castrol website mentioned pretty much the same thing: the light oils are spec'ed for fuel economy, but they suggested heavier oils would give better overall protection. I noticed last time I visited the site this "info" or "advice" was absent. Still, with dino oils, I think you, Bill and I are of the same mind!

Rick

I also buy into your old fart conspiracy theory. Witness the fact that, for example, in vehicles that FoMoCo specs. 5W-30 oil for in the U.S., they spec. 10W-30 oil in essentially the same engines and vehicles in essentially the same climates in Europe. The difference? We have CAFE numbers here.

Sacrifice engine longevity (nothing catastrophic, mind you, but finite nonetheless) for miniscule fuel mileage number gains

Bill Putney (to reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with "x")

Agreed... to a point! As I mentioned in one or more of my earlier posts, a lot depends on your engine. I personally would have no problem with a

15W-50 (or the 15W-40 I run in my car) in NorCal winters, assuming my driving pattern was the same as it is in SoCal: fire up the garaged car, drive 70 miles thru heavy traffic, then turn around and repeat the scenario a couple of hours later coming home.

OTOH, if I were to use my sister's pattern (she's up in your part of the state) where the car may have sat outside all night, and she's going 3/4 of a mile to the post office and back, then parks the car for several hours, I'd be inclined to go much lighter. Assuming I'm not losing pressure or increasing oil consumption by going too light for the condition of the particular engine (remember, mine's got over a third of a million miles, so it's hardly a competitor in the "tightness" department with even a 150k engine, let alone one still under warranty!)

Today there are way too many variables to make the choices as easy as they were back in the days when you ran 20, or even 10 weight, oil in the winter, 30 in the summer. Until the engine started burning oil, then you might switch to 40 in the summer. Some of the OF's here probably remember those days. Now, with engines being built so much tighter than even 20 years ago, you want to stay as light as you can as long as you can... being an oil engineer today sounds like a great way to get gray hair and an ulcer to me!

That's not surprising, since multi-grades supposedly start as lightweight oils with a variety of "magic juice" added to achieve the desired characteristics over their life expectancies. As others have mentioned in past oil discussions, some grade ranges take a lot more in the additive package than others, so it wouldn't surprise me they break down faster.

As to the engines, Castrol hinted in not too subtle terms a couple of years ago the engine is going right along with the oil--the faster the oil breaks down, the faster the engine will wear. Surely a generality--definitely hard to prove--and maybe that's why they don't say so any more on their website!

Glad your summer's not too hot yet--I think we're making up for you down here. Save us some water, eh?

Rick