Re: Synthetic Oil < From a Manufacturer's Factory Tech Rep

Here is the real story again;

Use Dino oil first few thousand miles of new or rebuilt engine because it allows metal to metal parts to wear or 'break in'. This is needed to 'seat' rings and such or you will loose compression and burn oil.

Switch to Synth oil at any time. Synth oil stops metal to metal wear almost completely unless you waited too long or have a defect in the oiling system. Some parts of some engines get poor oil lube so they wear anyway, like some engine's valve guides.

Dino oil breaks down quickly and allows if not causes your engine to foul itself up with burned and broken down oil deposits. These block oil passages and deposit non lube particles on bearings, etc.

We use Dino oil because that was all that was available back when cars started needing oil that was plentiful and cheap. Bear grease was used on wagon wheels but too expensive to refine for cars. Dino oil was not chosen because it was good for cars, but because it was the only thing that fit the need.

3000 mile oil changes are a fantasy that keeps the oil companies happy and discourages any great strides in improvements in the standard oils and oil additives used in modern dino oils. They love to sell 4 or 5 quarts of oil for every 3000 miles driven by every car, wouldn't you? But government forced car manu to at least change it to 5000.

Synth oils are usually good for 25000 miles but vary according to your specific driving situation (we always have to say that). You will notice that some Synth ads on TV are now advertising 15000 between changes. They could say

25000 but then no one would believe them. I personally, as a past warranty and tech rep from a major car manufacturer, would recommend Synth oils with changes at 15000 miles EXCEPT!;

You must follow your warranty schedule while in warranty, You must follow your extended warranty schedule while in extended warranty if you bought one. Use Dino oils for first 5 to 10,000 miles on new or rebuilt engines, Use Synth oils while in warranty after that if you are going to keep car over 140,000 miles or so. If you trade in your cars every 2 or 3 years with around 100,000 to 130,000 miles, you probably can use Dino oils and let it be the next guys problem.

Synth oils can usually be run at a weight lower than usual and improve gas mileage. So if you use 10W30, you can usually use 5W30 Synth with same protection and better mileage.

Synth will find any potential leaks faster than Dino oils. So if you have a potential or slow leak, Synth will hasten it in most cases.

Your engine will not get eaten alive while Synth is in it, but it will while Dino oils are in it. Remember that when thinking that Synth is a 'Cleaning Agent' as that is a deception. Otherwise you can switch back and forth at any time.

Also, refer to the above when thinking about purchasing the marketing idea of 'Blended' oils. 1 Qt of crap mixed with 4 Qts of Synth yields 5 Qts of crap. However, no bottle of Blended I have ever found even says how much Synth is in it, could be 1 one hundredth and it would still be a 'blend'.

RedCrow

Reply to
<RedCrow
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Hi,

Not to disparage your experience--or credentials--but many things you've stated are NOT the same as those stated by others w/ equally valid experiences. So let me play devil's advocate for a minute:

allows metal to metal parts to wear or 'break in'. This is needed > to 'seat' rings and such or you will loose compression and burn oil.

Discounted by Mobil 1 among others. Several makes now come with a factory fill of Mobil 1. Are you telling us these manufacturers "pre-break in" their engines at whatever cost? Since ONE of the mfrs is GM, the king of cheap IMO, I doubt it. None of these makes is known as an oil burner as far as I've heard.

completely unless you waited too long or have a defect in the

"Waited too long?" What does that mean? Synthetic oil will stop metal to metal wear if used early but not later? This statement doesn't make sense to me. But I'm open to learning.

passages and deposit non lube particles on bearings, etc.

No argument that dino oil does break down as far as meeting all its design specs. It's been long held the oil itself doesn't break down, but the additives do. There are arguments this isn't necessarily true. I won't touch that. However, the idea that non lube particles are going to be deposited on surfaces such as bearings that are constantly awash in pressurized oil flies in the face of the experience of too many of us who've torn down at least a few engines.

started needing oil that was plentiful and cheap. Dino oil was not

fit the need.

It's STILL plentiful, cheap and fits the need. I'd probably agree that after ONLY getting a quarter of a million miles or more out of several engines, that dino oil's certainly NOT good for engines!

discourages any great strides in improvements in the standard oils > and oil additives used in modern dino oils. They love to sell 4 or 5 Anyone who's chiseled carbon out of oil pans and valve covers in the mid-50s or earlier will probably disagree with you on the lack of "great strides" in oil technologies.

Sounds good, but look at "severe" service requirements in your owners manual. "Severe" for most of us means "if you drive your car." I don't see too many 5000 mile "severe" recommendations.

specific driving situation (we always have to say that). You will

But, of course, the oil filters aren't good for that length of time. Even Amsoil, the biggest proponent of 25k mile oil changes I know of, recommends more frequent filter changes. Extend this idea a bit and we're back to the "bypass filter" idea as advertised by Frantz years ago and continued by Motor Guard and others today. What protects your engine better: dino oil w/ 3k miles on it, or synthetic w/ 25k? I haven't seen this addressed anywhere but have my suspicions based on personal experience. Some oil analysis proponents have weighed in here and there on this subject--I'm not one of them as long as I can still do an oil change for the price of an analysis, and KNOW I've got clean oil in there. Maybe I don't watch enough TV, but I haven't seen any oil advertised 15k miles since the original Mobil 1 ads--I see BMW DOES advertise their cars only need servicing every 15k (and I'm sure they're using synthetics) but I wouldn't trust them as the final arbitrer of "truth" about oil. Most BMW owners I've known tell me that by 75k miles, oil is the LEAST of their problems...

Herein lies the rub! The mfrs DON'T generally seem to agree that synthetics are so good, else they'd have ANOTHER schedule in the book for synthetic use. From the manuals I've read, the mfrs don't even want to have a dog into that fight. Using synthetics for their long life, then having to change at dino intervals to maintain warranty coverage seems a false economy to me.

With regular oil changes between 3k and 5k miles, you can double those figures easily. You'll see that documented here and too many other places way too often to think it's a fluke.

Again, I don't see the auto mfrs weighing in on that one.

Dino oils are in it. Remember that when thinking that Synth is

Methinks you're beating a dead horse by now.

of 'Blended' oils. 1 Qt of crap mixed with 4 Qts of Synth yields > 5 Qts of crap.

I'd agree IF one was blending oil with crap. However, look on the bottles and you'll find most dino and most synthetics meet the same specs. Whether "home made" blending, within a brand and grade, helps is subject to argument. But it probably does no harm. As I stated in another post, if I could do a true head to head test of otherwise identical engines, I'd be less skeptical of both the ~probably~ inflated claims for synthetic and the ~probably~ inflated criticisms of dino.

On that issue, we agree! But until the U.S. comes up with some universal standards that ALL oils use for their ratings, it probably will be the only one...

But experiences differ and YMMV and all that. So there's a big choice in the marketplace. One's free to spend one's money as seen fit.

Rick

Reply to
Rick Courtright

Got me thinking. As a chemist I have no practical experience with oils but wonder if bio-diesel will function as a synthetic oil. I believe both are fatty acid esters.

Reply to
Frank

Reply to
Edward Hayes

allows metal to metal parts to wear or 'break in'. This is needed > to 'seat' rings and such or you will loose compression and burn oil.

completely unless you waited too long or have a defect in the

passages and deposit non lube particles on bearings, etc.

started needing oil that was plentiful and cheap. Dino oil was not

fit the need.

discourages any great strides in improvements in the standard oils > and oil additives used in modern dino oils. They love to sell 4 or 5

specific driving situation (we always have to say that). You will

Dino oils are in it. Remember that when thinking that Synth is

of 'Blended' oils. 1 Qt of crap mixed with 4 Qts of Synth yields > 5 Qts of crap.

Excellent post!I wish we could 'sticky' it!

I think the old (by now) Consumers Union test with the cabs is interesting and does 'hint' at the probability that 'we' are overly cautious about oil change intervals and 'quality'. But it is important to remember also that, I think cabs idle quite a bit, so the miles they get may not have many 'starts', arguably where a lot of wear from poor lubrication would occur. Also, I think cabs are kept indside a garage (heated?) overnight. The kind of tests we would all like to see are probably never gonna be done. That's why lab tests and oil analyses and fleet managers are what we use for data. And if we did have a test, would it be a car used by a guy commuting 30 minutes in rush hour traffic to and from work in a compact? Or a farmer towing a horse trailer in his V8 p'up? Or a soccer mom making short school and grocery runs in a V6 minivan? We'd probably complain "Yeah - but that's not how I drive MY car!" lol!

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

I went to faqs.org but didn't see a faq for this group. I don't remember ever seeing links to one posted in the group. Do we have a faq?

Reply to
John Rethorst

Nah - this is unmoderated. There are some moderated Usenet groups, rec.crafts.jewelry is one I know of. That's why it was 'wish' !

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

Unmoderated groups have faqs.

Reply to
John Rethorst

Hi,

I've seen faqs for a coupla unmoderated groups, but aren't they usually the result of some enterprising soul taking it upon himself to set things up? At least that's how it appeared to me. I honestly don't really know!

Rick C

Reply to
Rick Courtright

You're right of course. But as Rick said, I think volunteers in those groups have taken up the job of creating and manintaining an FAQ. We are fairly tolerant of common questions but googling a little before asking can't hurt. The popular Subaru forums have FAQs and 'stickies' and search functions.

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and
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. There are others as well.

Carl

Reply to
Carl 1 Lucky Texan

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