'89 Civic Won't Start After Sitting

"Chris F." wrote in news:4a3583e3$0$23748$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aliant.net:

That's a classic Main Relay problem. Check that out before doing anything with the injectors.

Your Main Relay is immediately above the interior hood release pull handle.

You should hear/feel 3 clicks from the Main Relay, plus this EXACT behavior:

1) Key is first turned to "II", Check Engine light comes on, Main Relay clicks. 2) Two seconds later, Check Engine light goes off, Main Relay clicks again. 3) Turn key to "III". As starter engages, the Main Relay clicks a third time.

It's easiest to put your hand on the Main Relay while turning the key, as the third click is difficult to hear over the starter.

Are ANY of the clicks missing?

I didn't check for the third click, but I did hear the first two. But what about the injector? The Honda manual says it should measure 1.5 to 2.5 ohms, and the (presumed) bad one measures 8.3. According to the manual, the injector is bad.

If you have indeed identified a bad injector, you need to replace it, not swap them. On this unique EFI system these injectors *kind of* work in stages, similar to primary and secondary barrels of a carburetor. They are not the same nor will they physically interchange.

Now, the real problem is you aren't using correct specs for your car. Chiltons or Haynes, perhaps? The lower of the two injectors should have a green plastic body. It is the "auxiliary" injector and has a spec range of 6-10 ohms. The upper has a brown plastic body and is the "main" injector, with a spec range of .6-1.6 ohms.

The engine probably won't start or will be very difficult with only one injector operating. The green one operates *any time* fuel is needed while the brown one helps out at startup and higher RPM/cruise operation. With code 16 setting you very well could have a wiring problem or bad injector driver(s) in the ECM. Without actively testing the injectors for both voltage and current patterns I would not personally condemn them (if they ohm tested in spec, which it sounds like they have). These tests would simply and quickly determine if you had injector control, the quality of the power and signal, and the integrity of the injectors under load. If everything looked good after testing I would suspect one or both are clogged or they're not actually getting fuel inside the throttle body fuel plenum (part of the TB casting).

"Chris F." wrote in news:4a35a65c$0$23778$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aliant.net:

Does the fuel pump operate when the Check Engine light is on for those two seconds when you first turn the key to "II"? Listen for a whine or hum under the rear seat bottom.

The injector(s) may indeed be bad (see Toyota MTD's post for more on that), but I've seen the Main Relay cause too many starting problems to recommend you do anything with the injectors until you are CERTAIN the Main Relay is operating as it should.

Yes the main relay does click three times. The next step, after measuring the fuel injector resistances, is to check for wiring problems so that's what I'm going to do next. According to the flowchart, I'm looking at one of four things; wiring, ECU, injector resistor, or of course a bad injector. I can't seem to locate the injector resistor block for some reason - does this vehicle not use one? Something else worth noting - after cranking the engine a few times, wisps of smoke can be seen exiting the exhaust port (the exhaust system is disconnected at the cat. converter), so at least some amount of combustion must be occuring. Which brings to mind another theory: the engine appears to have a leaky oil gasket (the entire engine is covered in oil), and I'm wondering if oil may have leaked into the cylinders over the 9 months it sat unused, preventing adequate combustion. I have to get a spark plug remover before I can check that theory, it seems unlikely but I have to consider just about anything.

Tegger wrote in news:Xns9C2B57358E1A5tegger@208.90.168.18:

More info: On this model, the fuel pump and the injectors get their power from the same wire coming out of the Main Relay. If the Main Relay has cracked solder in just the right place, the fuel pump will not run and the injectors will not receive power. If this happens, the ECU will see the lack of power from the injectors when it attempts to ground the injectors, and interpret this as a Code 16 situation.

This is why it's important to make sure of the Main Relay before condemning the injectors in spite of the injectors' observed resistance values.

MDT, sorry. (Master Diagnostic Technician.)

"Chris F." wrote in news:4a365ac4$0$23784$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aliant.net:

My Honda factory shop manual gives the same resistance values that Toyota MDT quotes (different for both injectors).

The genuine Honda manual very clearly shows the differences. Your aftermarket manual likely would not.

The main (upper) and aux injectors have very different shapes and function; they are NOT interchangeable. I don't think they will even fit into each other's mounting holes.

"Chris F." wrote in news:4a368933$0$23763$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aliant.net:

Good...

But does the fuel pump run during the two seconds the Check Engine light is on? This is critically important.

Do you even have fuel pressure? Did you check? There's an easy way to check this.

I can't seem to locate the

No resistor on this model.

All you need to do is pull the spark plug wires and peer into the tubes in the valve cover. If there's oil, it will be obvious.

The fuel pump does run for a couple of seconds (with the check engine light on) and then shuts off, as it should. Fuel pressure is ample - when the banjo bolt on the fuel filter is loosened (to purposely relieve the pressure) a considerable amount of fuel is discharged.

There is some oil around some of the spark plugs, just a bit at the bottom of the tubes. And the bit of smoke produced when the engine did kick had a very oily smell - problem found? I know that with some older lawn mowers, particularly those with Briggs & Stratton engines, the cylinders easily flood with oil when the mower is tipped up for cleaning. When you try and start them in this condition, the same thing happens - you crank and crank, the engine might kick a bit, but all you get is some oily smoke. After enough cranking those engines will eventually (and slowly) start - but is the same true for a car engine? If this is the problem and cranking the engine fails to discharge the oil, what's the next step? Please tell me I don't have to strip the engine down.

Did you replace the spark plugs prior to trying to refire the engine? Or are they the same ones that have been in there for the last 50K miles?

nate

They *should* - but if they managed to get damp/fouled somehow while the car was sitting... a new set couldn't hurt, anyway.

nate

Chris F. wrote:

Something is odd about this manual. It was one I bought from an Ebay seller, and it came in .PDF format on a CD. It appears to be a scanned copy of the real thing, and has the Honda logo and "(C) 1987 Honda Motor Co." on the front cover. Here's a screengrab of the flowchart I was referring to:

There seem to be other inconsistencies with this manual. For one, it refers to an injector resistor which doesn't exist. It also has no mention of the rear drum brakes, instead it shows disc brakes on all four wheels. Is this manual a knock-off or something? I know from years of electronics work that nothing is more frustrating or misleading than wrong service literature. I'd like to know where I could get a genuine, printed, (and reasonably-priced) copy of the correct manual for this car.

"Chris F." wrote in news:4a36d073$0$23746$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aliant.net:

That is a port-injected engine (one injector per cylinder, all the same). You have TBI, with two totally different injectors.

I think you've been sold a manual for an Integra. Everything you describe is all present on the Integra.

Is there a section at the front called "General Information"? This is the part where you find out exactly what models the manual covers.

Try eBay and Amazon. But go with paper, and have the seller explicitly confirm the manual is

1) for a US-market Civic, 2) for your model's year, and 3) complete, with no pages missing, torn up, or unreadable.

You're unlikely to find a REAL manual for much less than around $50 unless you stumble across one at a garage sale or something.

Don't focus on the injector as a problem yet. One bad injector would let the car run but with a miss. Follow Tegger and get the main relay checked out. He knows more about the Honda ignition system than I do. I'm going to remind you to check the basics. IF a Honda came into the shop with a no-start (or most basic cars) I would put a noid light on it

to see if the injectors are getting a signal and at the same time a spark checker (this model allows you adj the gap to see if the spark is present but week) to see if the ignition system is up to par- Not only if it's working but powerful enough. These two items are controlled in distributor

So if you have spark and injector pulse, adding a fuel should get it to fire.

Steve

"Chris F." wrote in news:4a36c5af$0$23768$ snipped-for-privacy@news.aliant.net:

Excellent. So to recap, the Main Relay clicks THREE times as the key is turned first to "II", then to "III". This is accompanied by the Check Engine light illuminating for two seconds and the fuel pump running during those same two seconds. The Main Relay may therefore be judged OK.

But you have NOT established that the injectors are actually firing! You still have that Code 16, which we can now be fairly certain is NOT the Main Relay and is probably either a wiring problem or an actual bad injector. Go back and read Toyota MDT's Monday reply.

You MUST pull the plugs and have a look at them. You also need to make sure spark is actually occurring /at the plug gap/. This means having a helper to crank. You put the plug into the plug wire, and hold the plug against a good body ground. It's best to do this at night or in a dark garage. You need to see a purply-blue spark.

I'm not sure about this, but I believe the ECU will not fire the injectors unless it sees an ignition event, so if you have no spark, the injectors will not fire. After you crank, is the throttle plate wet with fuel?

Does the car start if you first give it a shot of starting fluid?

Unless you're tilting the entire car the way you do a mower, I'd think this unlikely.

Forget the oil for now. Unless the plugs are completely soaked in it, it won't make any difference and will burn off quickly once the engine fires up.

I'll have to post back after I get to town and buy some more tools... namely a spark plug socket and noid lights. I might pick up some new spark plugs too just for good measure. It's quite a pain not having the tools for this work, and having to run to town (a 25+ mile drive) every time I need something. Tried cranking the engine again today, it kicked over a bit but still didn't start, interestingly though the ECU did not give any error codes this time. So hopefully that means the injectors are OK.

I suspect that if you looked you would see that the injectors are spraying fuel while you are cranking. If the gas is old it may take a while to get gas that is good enough to run the engine coming out of the injectors. Try putting some gas in a spray bottle and spraying it into the throttle body while you crank it. After it starts you may need to keep pumping gas in until the fresh gas can work its way thru. You did put fresh gas in the tank, right?

-jim