Car That Can Park Itself Put on Sale by Toyota

You buy Fords, Mike.

They are imported cars...

Scott in Florida

Then based on your requirement, a person looking for a comparable vehicle would have to buy a Camry. And in that case, the savings for buying a Prius becomes rather obvious since the price difference is smaller.

Don't forget that Toyota has a business goal of increasing their market-share in the US from 10% to 15% by 2010. To do that, creating a new vehicle which doesn't compete with the other vehicles they already offer is a good plan. That's why the 2004 Prius was carefully setup to fit nicely between Camry & Corolla.

JOHN

Some are, most aren't.

Ed

The Insight seemed a much better design than the Prius. The alternator/starter/generator/motor was sandwiched between the engine and the transmission. In overall moving parts, it was quite comparable to the gas-only vehicle, as the alternator and starter were removed and replaced with a single unit. Gather some energy when braking, add it back in when accelerating, and volia, you have an efficient hybrid.

The Prius had some theoretical advantages because of the separate and independent nature of the petrol engine and electric motor, but they didn't turn into practical advantages because the complexity got in the way.

Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"

The same people that leased them.

GM didn't give them a choice for one and only one reason (according to GM). So that they wouldn't be sold, so that they wouldn't have to support them.

If you don't like their plans for failure, take it up with them. If you want confirmation, the Popular Science/Mechanics and car magazines from the era documented GM's official stance, though I don't recall which one I read it in, as it has been a very long time.

Marc For email, remove the first "y" of "whineryy"

"Camrolla"?

Um - Dodge Stratus. Volvo 40 series.

There are a few cars of that size out there. Most sell for $16-$18K after you've added options to match the new Prius.

It's a wash - but you help pollution and oil dependancy and get a tax break - all good things.

Heh. Sounds like a video game. :)

"Motorcyles" that get near 100 mpg are pretty much limited to 80cc four cycle scooters.

I would equate Prius passenger leg and head room with Corolla.

Any tax incentives are really a taxpayer funded subsidy.

I think of it as less car resistration. It's not like we're getting money BACK - we're paying the crooks less out of our paychecks.

Subsidy my ass. If I was given the money off of the price of the car, sure - but off of my already onerous tax burden?

Funny how paying less of OUR money to Washington is somehow a subsidy. Talk about ass-backwards logic. As if we are robbing them of money by paying less to them. Sheesh.

I disagree. The Prius design is actually VERY simple. The "complex device" that allows it all to work is nothing more than a differential gearset. The Insight design gave up far too much by requiring that the gasoline engine run at variable speed and at any time the car was moving.

I agree that hybrids will eventually win. But right now the makers are charging a ridiculous premium for them because a certain segment of the population will buy them IN SPITE of the poor financial returns.

I contend that it was absolutely foolish to start production of hybrids with econoboxes, BECAUSE it leads directly to the discussion we're having. Namely "Why waste money on a Prius when an Echo gets virtually the same fuel efficiency for a whole lot less money?"

Back before Diamler swallowed Chrysler and began destroying the company, Chrysler had been making noises about developing a hybrid Dodge Durango. Now THAT would have been the perfect place to start with hybrids! No one in the world would argue that a 40+ mpg hybrid Durango wasn't cost-competitive with a 20 mpg conventional Durango, except for the owners who needed the 7000-lb towing capacity of the 5.9L gasoline Durango. The fuel savings would be on the order of 50%, but the vehicle price difference (percentage wise) would have remained about the same as the Prius vs. Echo, or even been less of a difference. The bigger the vehicle, the more sense going hybrid makes because heavier vehicles currently waste more energy on braking, and regenerative braking buys back much more efficiency than it does with a smaller vehicle.

Excpet - the new one is a lot larger and in a totally different class, size-wise. Comparing Oranges to Grapefruits.

And how many pounds of batteries, electric motor, power cables, and control systems?

This is not a small motorcycle. You are talking about an enclosed vehicle that can carry 4 or more passengers and luggage and meet all safety requirements. What percentage of the weight of a modern car is the engine and transmission? I'd guess less than 20%. I doubt that the small unbelievably efficient scooter motor, batteries, electric motor, etc. will weigh much less, but just to be "fair" assume they weigh half as much. That means you have only reduced the weight of the vehicle by 10%. There is no way this is going to get you 100 mpg.

Think about it! Don't be an enviro-lemming.

Ed

You aren't going to get 80% out of a small turbine either, not even before losses are figured in.

The problem is that both the Insight and Prius include other technologies which increase the efficiency besides their hybrid nature. They also have poor performance (at least on paper) even compared to other economy cars. I'm not convinced that you couldn't put a small, underpowered gasoline engine into a low-weight low-resistance shell like the Insight and get similar mileage at similar performance.

I could get over 40mpg with a 5-speed Tercel (1991), which had far better performance than the Prius.

ROTFL. If high-capacity thermal-electric coolers were practical, we'd see refrigerators based on them. We don't (except some very small units).