Car That Can Park Itself Put on Sale by Toyota

Ok Guys, It's so easy, lets see you do it. You've not included a single data point to support your assertions.

~~Philip asserted that current cars create 1% of the polution of pre-smog cars and that they are clean enough. This implies that the average automobile, including light trucks and SUVs polute just 1/100th of what the average was before polution controls were introduced.

So, pick your starting point (specify the date) and list all your sources. Make sure that you DON'T use allowed emissions levels, but instead use measured averages (both mean and weighted). Compare against the same information for all current passenger vehicles. List all formulas used in your calculations.

Don't forget to include all categories that the EPA currently measures, such as NOX, HC, CO, etc. You fail if you only find partial data.

Oh, BTW, try to do it without insulting or belittling anyone or any group.

Good luck. I look forward to seeing how an expert will show why our pollution controls are as good as they need to be.

Daniel

So? That was the point. Tilde Phil's assertion was that cars were so much cleaner (1% of the older cars), and even using a moderately dirty, over powered car from the 70s I could not find a way to claim that the best technology today is that much cleaner.

The reason that I included the URL is so that anyone following this thread can do the math for themselves.

So I guess the moral of the story is "Don't pay any attention to tilde Phil". He hasn't included a valid fact in any of his posts on this thread. He does not appear to have even tried to look at the URL to evaluate it's validity.

Daniel

Sterns left out my previous stement.... : It's VERY difficult to compile real world figures and his his previous stement.... : Only for someone like yourself who knows nothing at all about auto : exhaust emissions and is trying to bluff your way through a : discussion of the matter.

Wait a second... DASTERN accused ME of not knowing what I was talking about. He contradicted my assertion that it is difficult to accurately compare the average emissions of old cars with current models.

I expected at least some token effort at finding the worst possible model from 1960 to compare against the cleanest possible 2004 model just so he could say 'told ya so'. I'm disapointed. I do give him credit for a post without insults or derision :-)

I guess it wasn't quite so easy as he thought.

Daniel

5> It's VERY difficult to compile real world figures

4> Only for someone like yourself who knows nothing at all about auto

4> exhaust emissions and is trying to bluff your way through a 4> discussion of the matter.

3> Ok Guys, It's so easy, lets see you do it.

2> Sorry, no. The burden of proof is on the prosecution, i.e., on you.

That's right. And I proved it, point by point, correcting your mistakes one at a time.

I'm not sure what grounds you think you have for asserting "expectations" when you're *so* obviously *so* far on the left end of the learning curve of the subject on which you're laughably attempting to sound authoritative.

DS

Danny boy ... you've already lost the argument.

No such URL printed thru on my copy which is why I asked for your information source. My reader software filters off hotlinks.

Perhaps you might post it again.

Any special economic priviledge granted by government is welfare, whether it's a loan guarantee to corporations or to college students. There is such a thing as welfare by government fiat.

You could be right. Was $22 at or below market price in 1983?

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 14:28:34 -0400, "C. E. White"

There was recently a short-term shortage in Arizona.....I suppose it could be called "manmade" - a pipeline broke.

There were long lines at the places that did have any gas for a while. A Prius may have kept you in fuel long enough to ride the shortage out.

Interesting response. If I were Perry Mason I'd look at the previous posts and, noting that none of his points was on target, yell

"OBJECTION YOUR HONOR! Prosecution is introducing material not in evidence!"

For those following the thread, I'd like to point out that Sterns did not attempt to support his argument, nor did he make any attempt to provide the information that he he claims I gave incorrectly. He did a great job of making mountains out of mole-hills while avoiding the possibility of being proven wrong.

Masterfully done!

Thank goodness usenet is for fun and sharing ideas, otherwise jerks like this would annoy me :-)

Daniel (NOT Sterns)

How nice! I made a simple request. I didn't ebven ask them to "put up or shut up", but when tilde Phil and Dan Sterns are unable to substantiate their claims they declare themselves winners! That's a neat trick that I thought only worked in politics. Oops. It does work only in politics.

New quote of the day; On usenet, everyone can see your blunders.

Daniel

Brake pads also wear much more slowly on hybrids with regenerative braking.

So would an H2 with a 38 gallon tank - assuming you filled it up just before the shortage developed.

Regards,

Ed White

For a short outage, your logic is 100% correct. However, in shortages like '73 there was rationing. You were only allowed 8 gallons per visit to the station. In my Prius I'd have to stand in line once every three weeks or so with my current driving patterns. In the Hummer you'd be in line many more times if you drove the same amount.

On the other hand, there'd be more gas available for our Hummer friend :-)

Daniel

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 03:37:51 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@tanj.com

And you don't get very good mileage in any vehicle when you're stuck in line waiting for gas, especially in 110 degree weather where you'll be awfully tempted to run the A/C.

That's one of the interesting things about hybrids. While they don't get great mileage when stuck in line, they do pretty well. The engine does not always have to start to move you 20 or 30 feet. You can do much the same thing by killing your engine when appropriate. The hybrids do it for you.

Daniel

i wonder how it feels, spending $72 a week to fill up the tank. no, actually, i dont.

If the air-conditioning is on and you're stuck in a snarl push the button to recycle the cabin air. Once you get moving again (or sooner if the air gets stale or you start to freeze your butt off) press the button again to bring in fresh outside cooled air.

The 2004 Prius ought to do very well running its electric A/C while not moving. The engine will start only when needed to recharge the battery pack, meaning that little of the engine's output will be wasted. (Ooh, I'm gonna enjoy mine next August!)

"Fresh" outside air, while on an urban highway? A fresh supply of NOx and particulates, most likely. I keep my A/C on recirculate at all times; plenty of CO2 leaks out and O2 leaks in regardless. And anyway A/C works better (that is, more effectively and more efficiently) on recirc whenever the cabin air is cooler than the outside air, which is often the case in a hot climate. This may be counter-intuitive: one might think, "but what about all that heat from Sunlight trapped by the cabin?" But what matters is the temperature of the air entering the A/C evaporator; the evaporator doesn't know or care where the air's heat came from. Similarly, recirc air is often less humid, which also helps independent of the air temperature.

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