Car That Can Park Itself Put on Sale by Toyota

Sounds like a nice piece of technology.

But I can see a follow-on that will be even better: A car that will automatically change out of the fast lane if someone is following you closely and you're not following anyone else closely.

If Toyota isn't interested, maybe a competitor will be. Or maybe Prius's onboard computer can catch a virus that will introduce this behavior. :D

No - same idea. Engine drives generator. Constant speed affair for maxiumum efficiency. Generator drives electric motors.

Just that in a car, a small unit based off of a turbocharger might provide enough power. Get almost turbine efficiencies in a tiny package.

Maybe. Otoh, 80% efficiency with losses factored in for the entire system is a lot better than 40% or so the hybrids get, so space might not be a problem, especially since at optimum RPMs and output, a tiny engine the size of a motorcycle could get the job done.

Figure twice the efficiency of a car. Figure most cars don't actually generate more than 100hp in actual driving, as the automatics shift way before their optimum RPM(power) ranges to get good economy.

A tiny 30-50hp engine should easily be enough. I've seen

600cc 4-stroke motorcycle engines that put out 100HP, so definately doable.

Programming by Microsoft. Airbags by...

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 21:59:55 -0700, John David Galt

Better yet, since the gov't has seen fit to mandate airbags, seatbelts, etc....simply mandate self destruct devices for vehicles stuck in the left lane when they shouldn't be.

There have already been cars which have driven themselves 99% of the way across the country with no human intervention, BTW.

More often than not, they are women.

You say this as if it would be difficult. Even the Maybach 62 should be able to cruise at 60mph with less than 100 hp (probably closer to 60). Gas turbines are rediculously small. A package that is a foot in diameter and three feet long can produce nearly a thousand hp, and for a small decrease in overall efficiency and allowing for a wider package, we can reduce the length by nearly a third. A 60 hp turbine could probably fit in the same volume as the starter, and it would weigh less. The only lower limit on a generator's size is the requirement to extract waste heat. The motor is similar, but there is the problem that smaller motors produce less torque and require a gearbox [comments on motor/generator variations with size assume constant power. Increasing the electrical frequency decreases the size and increases the mechanical speed]

I hate to keep jumping into these posts with a facts and a bit of logic once again, but I can't resist this one it's too easy. According to the EPA 2003 official 'Fuel Economy Guide,' a five speed Prius is Toyotas most fuel efficient vehicle at 52/45 city/highway MPG, with an annually fuel cost of $484. The Corolla five speed is listed at 32/40 city/highway MPG, with an annually fuel cost of $665.. According to your figures $7,000 will buy ALL OF THE FUEL for the Corolla for 10.5 years and no expense battery to replace t some point. It will take 38 years to save any money on the difference. Hybrids are for those rich people that want to, and can afford to, save us from that evil global warming, IMO.

For you lazy guys that insist that someone else do you research for you, here is the source of my information

which is updated regularly. I used the printed version of the guide, available free at any new car dealership or you local public library. I'm sure someone will still want the last word anyway. Be my guest I'm outta here ;)

mike hunt

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Thank you, MikeHunt. (baddaboom). Prius: (1) A yuppie method of spending dollars to save nickles. (2) A yuppie method of claiming the moral high ground on environmental issues.

That would be interesting. What would you have driving the power steering and A/C compressor? An "accessories" electric motor?

Joeseph usually makes up figures as he goes along so don't get upset. LOL

In the US, those safety devices have been mandated for quite a few years, particularly seatbelts.

It is the turbine to which he is referring when he talks of 80% efficiency.

Dan

[ discussion of serial hybrid using dubious power plants sniped ]

This statement can only come from someone who has not driven the models in question. Or maybe someone who's not driven other cars that get close to 50MPG, so they fail to see what advantages are added by the hybrid.

ilet me contrast the last high economy car I had with my Prius. An 82 Dodge Colt with 8 speed (dual range 4 speed manual) transmission seats two adults and two children. There is no trunk. The 2002 Prius with a CVT (continously variable transmission) seats 4 adults plus 1 child. The Prius gets 25% better milage.

HILLS: The Colt lost speed going up hill. If slowed by a truck, it could not regain 65 MPH until the road flattened. The Prius will accellerate up a 6% grade, quickly reaching 65 MPH again.

ACCELLERATION: Merging on the freeway in the SF bay area was scary in the Colt. Many of the onramps are short. The Prius handles the same onramps easily. 0-60 time does not count as much as 20-65 time.

MILAGE: Many things adversely effected the milage of the Colt. Traffic jams, hills, stop and go, exceeding 65MPH all cut the milage to as much as 1/2. The only thing that adversly effects the Prius milage is the real short trips (3 minutes to the store). Hills and stop and go DON'T hurt the mailage.

EMISSIONS: The Prius manages to do all this with some of the lowest emissions of any car in production.

You can probably find a high economy car that does some of these things just as well, but (from my research) there are non that do ALL thse things without a hybrid system of some sort.

Go down to the Toyota or Honda dealer and try it yourself. They are amazing.

Daniel

Please look into the emissions and fuel economy of a 600cc 100HP motorcycle. Last high performance bike I had only got milage in the 20s.

Daniel

Please do some research on the following turbine traits;

1) Emissions, particularly NOX 2) Mufflers, size and effectiveness. 3) Temperature/insulation (for turbine and it's exhaust) 4) Startup time. 5) Cool down time. 6) Minimum time between runs.

Each of these issues contribute to the fact that there are no production automobiles based on a turbine.

Think about it... Do you really want to have to wait for a turbine to warm up before you leave your driveway? Do you want to have a SUV sized car so there's room for 4 people and the muffler?

Daniel

The new pruis is closer to a Civic in room(wins), has nicer amenities as far as I can tell, and is built - well, it's a Toyota, the same as an Echo.

TUR-BINE. TURBINE.

:)

Note Richard Bell's post about the size - a gas turbine for purely generation purposes would be hardly larger than a typical supercharger. They are something like 80-90% efficient last I checked, and pure electric systems are in the 90% or so range as well(battery to DC motors). The direct drive electric system also provides huge amounts of off-the line-torque and no transmission/gearing change losses, so it's closer to 1/3 the amount of HP you need with a conventional IC engine vehicle.

Okay - figure 120HP for the little thing. 40-50HP gas turbine. Shoot - I've seen 4-stroke 250cc racing bikes that put out this much power. That's not even a turbine.

| |> snipped-for-privacy@mailcity.com wrote: |> I hate to keep jumping into these posts with a facts and a bit of |> logic once again, but I can't resist this one it's too easy. |> According to the EPA 2003 official 'Fuel Economy Guide,' a five |> speed Prius is Toyotas most fuel efficient vehicle at 52/45 |> city/highway MPG, with an annually fuel cost of $484. The |> Corolla five speed is listed at 32/40 city/highway MPG, with an |> annually fuel cost of $665.. According to your figures $7,000 |> will buy ALL OF THE FUEL for the Corolla for 10.5 years and no |> expensive battery to replace at some point. It will take 38 years

|>>> Ok... spend $22,000 to get 47.5 mpg or .... spend $11,000 to get |>>> 38 mpg. You sure can buy a LOT of gasoline for a 38 mpg vehicle |>>> with the the remaining $11,000.

I don't disagree with this logic, but it makes two assumptions that I would not bet the farm on:

1 - Fuel will continue to be available at today's price. 2 - Fuel will continue to be available in today's quantity

When the inevitable lines form at the pumps again, all the above logic goes out the window.

This also assumes (nearly as I can figure) about 15K miles/year. There have been times when I was doing 30K miles per year in my primary car. Rex in Fort Worth