Chinese cars coming.

I've ridden in several of their higher priced copies of the VWs. They make a VERY nice copy and they feel very competent and well made even at 90 mph on their freeways. I didn't ride in any of the GM products they were building there but from the outside the fit and finish looked identical to what is made in the US.

But I suspect that you may have a

I dont get involved in China's affairs. I have no prima facie evidence of anything illegal being done.

Maybe you find harvesting organs from executed prisoners distasteful. I do not, necessarily. And I dont know whether all these prisoners are political or criminal.

I would find it distasteful if they were executing people SIMPLY for their organs.

Well everything a tyrannical government does is 'legal' there. Hell it's now legal for the president of the USA to declare anyone he wants an unlawful enemy combatant (without Habeas corpus, citizen or not makes no difference because the government just declares one not to be a citizen) and make that person disappear into the network of secret prisons. Even shipped to another proxy nation and be tortured. It's all 'legal'. Miltary Commissions Act passed late last year, Rendition, the policy started by the Clinton adminstration to have proxy nations do the torturing for the US government.

As I figured, it's not enough...

More:

-> The Green Party of Canada is urging the Canadian government to act on

-> reports of a secret death camp in the northeastern Chinese city of

-> Shenyang, where detained Falun Gong practitioners have reportedly been

-> killed for their organs.

-> The Sujiatun concentration camp is a secret underground facility where

-> the Chinese communist regime has reportedly held thousands of Falun Gong

-> practitioners, whose organs are harvested.while the victims are still

-> alive.and sold in China's lucrative organ trade.

-> It is not known where the hearts, kidneys, corneas, and other organs

-> that are reportedly harvested from Falun Gong adherents are sold.

-> However, a transplant assistance centre in the First Affiliated Hospital

-> of China Medical University, also in Shenyang city, boasts on its website

-> that its patients are from "all around the world" and that its organ

-> operations are "more safe and reliable here than in other countries,

-> where the organ is not from a living donor."

-> Organs are available in as little as one week, the centre says, whereas

-> wait times in countries like Canada are usually on the order of several

-> years. The centre was established in 2003, when organ harvesting at

-> Sujiatun is said to have been at its peak.

Such views are why the USA is becoming more like China.

How do you think they get the wait time to be so short?

A government that has so much power and is so unaccountable would never make up a crime to charge and convict someone with so that a connected VIP type could get the organs he needs... Such a government would never have people bribed into obtaining the organs either...

Well, Brent, you go change things in China, and I'll mind the store.

That doesn't follow at all. Just stop trying to make china's government seem like a 'good friend' that is reforming to rationalize buying crap made there. China's government has no reason to reform when such rationalizations are made by those enriching it.

copies of the VWs. They

I'm not at all surprised. Hopefully the "Kayla's" of the world will realize at some point that while China has many problems it is indeed moving ahead and we will all be better off to hold our doors open as much as possible.

doesn't follow at all. Just stop trying to make china's government seem

The operative term being "seem like". Brent do you realize the "Sujiatun dath camp" anti-China hysteria you referenced has been discredited by multiple undercover investigation?

Falun Gong (who pays for Epoch Times) propaganda has been discredited by US government and Chinese dissident investigations:

1) (section CRS-7) 2) 3) (page 3) As you can see, the hospital Falun Gong accused is partly owned by a Malaysian health care company, Country Heights Health Sanctuary, and is subject to oversight beyond Chinese authority. Malay officials have documented prior year visit, and the facility has been open to public for years.

Contact: Epochtimes, Inc. John Tang Suwanee, GA 30024, US

Italy? Can't even pull a whois on this cite. Anyway, let's quote from your source:

"In 1999, the .Falun Gong. movement gave rise to the largest and most protracted public demonstrations in China since the democracy movement of a decade earlier. The People.s Republic of China (PRC) government, fearful of a political challenge and the spread of social unrest, outlawed Falun Gong and carried out an intensive, comprehensive, and unforgiving campaign against the movement. Since 2003, Falun Gong has been largely suppressed or pushed deep underground in China while it has thrived in overseas Chinese communities and Hong Kong."

Gee... that sounds like a wonderful government they have there in china.

Undercover to the camp? Hardly. Let's see what they really did, from your source, CRS-7:

"American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as the hospital site on two occasions . the first time unannounced and the second with the cooperation of PRC officials . and after investigating the facility .found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital..25 Amnesty International spokespersons have stated that the claims of systematic organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners cannot be confirmed or denied."

They visited a hospital with no ability to roam as they please and found nothing. They visited again with PRC officals and again found nothing. Gee, I would expect exactly that.

Short repeat of above.

Now you go and try to see every single area of your neighborhood hospital, then get back to me.

However none of this changes the basic fact that China is not a place where people are free or even close to it. Just try to have a second child as citizen of that nation.

Face it...nobody is free. Some of us have longer leashes than others.

With an attitude like that, it's no wonder the USA is going in the direction it is.

It is just realism. I am very optimistic, within the radius of my leash, of course.

China is what it is. The people there at least eat now. Not too many decades ago they were starving.

copies of the VWs. They

If I was younger I'd be thinking about working over there, it's a hotbed of business startups and they are building on a huge scale. 25% of all the building construction cranes in the world are in China.

Ah, Epoch. Do you know the propaganda outlet is paid for by Falun Gong?

The financial connection between Falun Gong and Epoch Times is not a secret. Here's the money trail found in non-profit declarations (Form

990, Page 2, Part III c):

Southern USA Falun Dafa Association. $10,350 were given to Epoch Times in 2002, $22,700 in 2003, $14,750 in 2004:

Falun Dafa Association of New England. $57,609 were spent on computer and print media, $97,755 in 2003, $116,823 in 2004: (These are but two examples of the hundreds of FLG non-profits in US.)

If you don't know how to do whois for EU address, please ask. Try eurodns.com

The same CRS article can be found here:

We've investigated by going there secrety. Unless you can come up with citation to back up your "Hardly", I'm gonna go with the State Dept. investigators.

How do you know? Cite it. Also I see you didn't comment on anti- communist activist's investigation. I'll assume you are satisfied with Mr. Wu's undercover investigation.

All this goes to show this anti-China propaganda is bunk.

Those evil people who want freedom from oppression from the benevolent chinese government.... I am sure the chinese government has a consent form from every prisoner they harvest an organ from.

The chinese government just let US officals check every room, go through all the files. Yeah... sure.

Americans cannot even *drive* on the streets of china without a run in with the corrupt authorities and you want me to believe that they had free access through out a hospitial and it's records? No, buddy, the job of citing free and unfettered access and a complete job is on your shoulders.

You mean that guy who read witness testimony and then gave his *OPINION* of it? That's not an undercover investigation.

Here's mr. wu's article, the one you cited:

It gives witness tesimonies then each one is followed by what he calls his "analysis and opinion". However, unlike you, he knows that china's government is "an evil regime that commits many atrocities including the persecution of the Falun Gong."

Why don't you go live in that polluted cesspool assembling crap for the US market at pennies on the dollar living in a company dorm with not even free speech? Hell a censored internet. I am tired of hearing excuses from

*free* people for an oppressive, corrupt, central state. Even more tired of the fact generally those same people are supporting the construction of one here in the USA.

Those big new tall bright shiney buildings in Chinese cities don't look so bright once you get up close to them.You want to drive a car in China? Well,Good Luck to you. cuhulin

the money trail between Epoch Times and Falun Gong.

"Yeah... sure." sure is convincing. How do you know what happened during the secret visit? If you have no proof just admit it.

I provide citations showing secret visit and undercover investigation. Where's your citation?

Had you not delted the links I provided, you would've read the part where Wu described how he sent investigators inside China within days to verify the story:

"I arranged for people inside China to visit the Sujiatun scene. From March 12, the investigators canvassed the entire Sujiatun area. On March 17, the investigators visited two military barracks in Sujiatun. On March 27, the investigators secretly visited the Chinese Medical Blood Clotting Treatment Center in Sujiatun. On March 29, the investigators went to the Kongjiashan prison near Sujiatun. None of the aforementioned investigations revealed any trace of the concentration camp."

cited:

Harry Wu has been THE expert on this issue for decades. Who are you?

Why don't you go fly a kite? Who the hell are you to tell me what to think and what to do? Looks like you have nothing to refute the facts cited, you are going after the messenger.

Be a man, make me.

I don't claim to, but I do know that a typical medical facility doesn't let people off the street just wander everywhere and go through the files. But you certainly don't know what the 'inspection' involved and it's your job to show it was complete, not mine.

You showed no undercover investigation as I showed with your own cite. You showed a visit by people off the street, which is meaningless. And my cites were the ones you were objecting to, remember?

So what? Just people wandering around. Doesn't change what china's government is. I could provide you links of camps in the USA, of course you'd say they don't exist. Like the one in indiana that is offically a long closed amtrak repair facility. Interesting that it has been equipped with what is needed for a camp to hold people in.

cited:

Because the article isn't what you said it was, you fall back to argument by authority. Mr. Wu Agrees with me, that the chinese government is oppressive and a tyranny. Yet, you and others want to paint it as 'good'.

Talk about projection, you're the one going after the messenger with your attack on the epoch times. You try to say that their reporting is invalid because of who funds them.

I simply went through your cites and found they weren't what *YOU* say they were. You misrepresent the cites you make. That's your ignorance or dishonesty and I don't care which. It's a trivial matter to quote them and show they aren't these grand undercover investigations that you claim them to be, but rather off the street visits with no special access, government guided visits, analysis of witness reports, and people wandering about the area. It's not my fault you pumped them up thinking I wouldn't bother to check.

*laugh* If you think China is such a wonderful place, go live there. The fact you need someone to make you live there by force shows you know it's not.

I have never worked there, but the company I used to work for had people there.

In fact we had people in most countries of the world.

Im not sure it is a good place for a foreign entrepreneur, but the Chinese seem to be strongly adapting to international business. So living there as a representative of an international company could be very nice.

I take the 'sparrow' approach. I was in communist Russia some years ago, and even though the government was authoritarian and not at all like the west, people lived, worked, ate, and reared their families with relatively little interference. A sparrow is seldom noticed when pecking out its existence. If you dont make a target of yourself, chances are you will also go unnoticed.

A couple of months ago,I saw a photo on the internet of a traffic jam in Beijing,or one of those other big cities in China.People driving (or trying to get somewhere) and trying to merge with other traffic going around that circular round about.It was amazing! cuhulin