High mileage oil question

Marshall S. Smith wrote in article ...

I have always loved that line, "...I have heard...", and, as far as what it is worth, in my mind it is usually worth nothing.

Where did you hear this? From a total stranger at a party? In the next stall in the men's room? From your brother-in-law who owns a $150 Craftsman tools set and calls himself a mechanic? At the local bar?

For a guy with a *.edu e-mail addy, I would have thought you would quote some sort of authoritative source instead of using such vague language.

And, to answer that question that just popped into your head, "Yes. I taught Vocational Automotive Technology for 10 years."

First of all, most street-driven cars do not develop the sort of oil temps that are generated under racing conditions, so it would be virtually impossible to work a street engine in such a way that its oil temps are maximized.

Let's see, 25° C is equivalent to approximately 77° F

On a street-driven engine running oil temps at approximately 200° F, you would be talking oil temps of approximately 125° F with such a drop - which would be providing minimal - if not measurably inadequate - lubrication from oil which has been designed to run at a much higher temperature.

What minimal - if any - benefit you might gain in subjecting seals and gaskets to lower heat will be more than offset by engine wear - such as bearings - from oil that is not being used at optimal temperatures.

If your friend saw this sort difference in oil temperatures in his racing engine, he should be concerned, because one of two things would likely be happening.

A.) If the 77° F drop brought his oil temps back to more normal 250° F range, that would suggest that his oil temps had been running in the area of 330° F - which would indicate to me that there was some sort of mechanical problem in the engine driving the oil temps to an unsafe range. I doubt if his engine would have run long at full-song under those circumstances.

B.) If his oil temps had been operating in a reasonable 250° F range, the resulting 77° F drop would bring the oil temps down to around 175° F - a temperature range that really doesn't allow an oil to fully warm up and to function at its designed temperature range. Again, I doubt if his engine would have run long at full-song under those circumstances.

Methinks he was quoting the "company line" about one of synthetic oil's purported "benefits" due to his sponsorship.

In our experimentation with synthetics versus conventional gear oils in the transmission and rear axle of a real race car, we plumbed in pyrometers to the transmission and rear axle.

We found approximately 10° F temperature differences - not anywhere near what the synthetic sales rep had promised us......if we had only taken his word on it. (NOTE: The word "synthetic" in the previous sentence may be used as a noun and/or adjective)

Additionally, one of the "benefits" presented for the synthetic gear oil was its ability to "climb" the gears due to its stringiness - a demonstration carried out on a countertop, hand-cranked, multi-gear display comparing conventional to synthetic.

Problem is that such "clinginess" has been shown on the dynamometer to unnecessarily use up horsepower in pulling the lube around. Besides, as I pointed out to "Synthman", the top gear on the conventional oil side of the display was wet with oil. It just didn't do it in such a dramatic fashion.

I believe Lucas uses a similar countertop display to sell their snake oil. Try it next time you see one of these displays. The top gear on the "untreated" side gets lubricated.

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Race Car Chassis Setup and Dial-in Services

Reply to
Bob Paulin
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I've just taken a quick look. Looks like an excellent site, very informative. Will definitely spend some time there!

Reply to
Doc

...

Not so fast.

A 25°C temp *difference* is equal to a 45°F temp difference (25 * 1.8).

It depends on what your street driving looks like. On the Autobahn you may easily see oil temps much higher than 200°F.

...

Thomas

Reply to
Thomas Tornblom

True. Cripes, maybe we _should_ all be using Kelvin.

Yep.

Reply to
Stephen Bigelow

Thomas Tornblom wrote in article ...

Not so fast, yourself !!!

You're missing a critical portion of the formula to convert from Celcius to Farenheit.

Based on your math formula, "normal" human body temperature of 37° C would convert to 66.6° F (37° C * 1.8 = 66.6° F)

Correct °C to °F formula is 9/5 (or your 1.8) * 25 PLUS 32° = 77° F

9/5 X 25 = your 45, but you must add the 32.

Add the 32° to the human body temperature example above, and you come up with.....Voila! ... 98.6° F - the correct temperature, and correct answer.

I repeat, a 25° C difference amounts to a 77° F difference which will likely present problems of one sort or another.

Boy, am I glad I don't have you monitoring my temperatures.

Bob Paulin

Reply to
Bob Paulin

No, no, no...he's talking about a DIFFERENCE of 25C, not what 25C converts to in F.

Look at it this way...

100C = 212F

75C (100-25) = 167F

212F - 167F = 45F
Reply to
asdf

No, this is where you make an error.

A *temperature* of 25°C is equivalent to 77°C, but the constant 32 is only applied once, and they cancel each other out for differentials.

An example:

25°C is as you say equivalent to 77°F 50°C is equivalent to 122°F

So the difference between 50 and 25 is equivalent of the difference of

122 and 77, which happens to be 45.

Nope, think again.

As I have proved, it is not.

Reply to
Thomas Tornblom

After looking a bit at Bob's oil site, one thing I think should be pointed out, is that he points out very noticeable wear at the top of con rod bearings after only 30k miles, certainly reinforces the idea that 50k should be plenty of mileage to detect differences in wear characteristics.

Reply to
Doc

FYI, in reference to the earlier posts, synthetic has a definite advantage in extreme cold flow and possibly in mileage. For the turbo driver, there are some additional advantages.

Reply to
Jimmy

Have fun doc, just remember that everyone is expected to act civilly and the trolling crap that goes on here in the use.net forums is not tolerated. >;^)

Oh, and conversions aside, I haven't found that switching from a conventional oil to a synthetic reduces temps noticeably in any vehicle I've ever knowned.

One thing about Mobil 1 and Royal Purple, though. Many find increased horsepower as well as mileage. But this is primarily due to reduced hydrodynamic drag as these two oils are formulated to be thinner than other brands in the same weight.

--- Bror Jace

Reply to
Bror Jace

No, what is amazing is that you continue to think old engines were sealed with buffalo hide and beeswax or something. The point is that all seals that have been in common use FOR DECADES are quite compatible with synthetic oil.

Reply to
Steve

Did you even think that synthetic oils are formulated to be compatible with older engines? Geesh.

Reply to
Ignasi Palou-Rivera

Thomas Tornblom wrote in article ...

Okay...okay!

I have no problem conceding the error in my conversions.......Mea Culpa!............

.........BUT, even a 45° F temperature change is *still* a lot to attribute to a simple change of oil alone.

Even most of the synthetic shills out there don't usually claim much more than 20° F or so.

Again, you may use the term "synthetic" in the above sentence as a noun OR adjective.

I believe the claim of a 25° C (or 45° F) temperature difference due to a change of lubricant only is a real s-t-r-e-t-c-h of the truth - especially given the results of our own testing of synthetic versus conventional gear lubes.

Bob Paulin - R.A.C.E. Race Car Chassis Setup and Dial-in Services

Reply to
Bob Paulin

Whatever. I really don't give a $hit if your car leaks.

Reply to
Jimmy

Oh yeah... hard, 20-30 year old seals are just the thing to use with synthetic oil. Have fun.

Reply to
Jimmy

Have *you* had a leak problem with synth, "Jimmy"?

I certainly haven't despite some high miles.... Audi Coupe 375,000 kms Audi 5000S 289,000 kms Honda Accord 283,000 kms

Reply to
Stephen Bigelow

You REALLY just don't have a grip on anything, do you?

Reply to
Steve

Couldn't you make this argument with any current oils? What oil did your 1966 recommend - SC? Current SL oil does not have the same additive package or even base oil formulation as SC.

I believe the current Mobil 1 is compatible with most of the seal materials used in the last 40 years. It my opinion that if the car wasn't leaking oil when you switched to Mobil 1, it is unlikely to start after the switch. This is only an opinion. I have made the switch a couple of times with no adverse effects and won't hesitate to do it in the future if/when I convince myself Mobil 1 is worth the extra cost. It is my current opinion that it is not worth the cost if you are doing 3000 to 5000 mile oil changes.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

If they would rerun the test in Raleigh, NC they could form a lot of conclusions about how oil performs in worn out ex-Highway Patrol Crown Victorias - since that seems to be the cab of choice in this area.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

Any proof of this?

I can believe this is good practice where it gets unusually cold. This is one area where it is certain that synthetics excel. And, hopefully, availability and reliability are high priorities for the military. Whether or not this has any meaning for civilians in mild climates is debatable.

Ed

Reply to
C. E. White

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