Ok, I just got my new crank-mounted oil pump. It came with a blue paper gasket instead of the factory o-rings (no gasket came off the old pump). The gasket goes all around the pump and also covers the o-ring slots around the oil passages.
It's the correct pump. It is identical in every way to the broken one except that it's not broken. The difference is the gasket. The oil passages are not *blocked* by the gasket, I'm just not sure if a plain gasket is sufficient to seal an oil pump housing up to the block. (On the bottom of the pump where it meets a flange of the oil pan I'm using ultrablack RTV.)
I was thinking of putting some ultrablack RTV in the o-ring grooves and then using the gasket as-is. How bad of an idea is that?
Does the dealer's parts diagrams show either a gasket or o-rings? I'd probably check with them first just to make sure. I don't like using "stuff" when there is any chance of some of it flaking off and getting into the very small oil passages.
The dealer diagram shows neither. The factory manual mentions neither. The teardown manual mentions o-rings. I couldn't tell whether the black residue that I was peeling out of the old pump was RTV or melted o-ring material.
I did. They had no idea and suggested I buy their oil pump at 2X the cost. But they couldn't tell me whether or not it would come with o-rings or a gasket. Part of the problem may be that this is an Isuzu motor in a GM car (Geo Storm, Isuzu 4XE1)
I also obtained a Beck Arnley pump (supposed to be OEM identical) and it came with no gasket and no o-rings. Calling B/A yielded only the answer that they do not supply o-rings. The o-rings, if any, are too strange a size to find at a parts store, even in those A/C assortments (I tried).
I was thinking of using just enough to fill up the o-ring grooves, and counting on the gasket everywhere else.
On the pan, I was planning to use enough to fill in the machined depressions in the pan lip, and then spreading the rest across the pan flange with a putty knife to get a good seal with the bottom of the pump. The oil will be drained and replaced before running the pump.
It's possible. It wouldn't be the first time the teardown manual has been wrong. I don't appear to get an Isuzu newsgroup, but I have been asking on two Isuzu forums with very little response. The one response I did get came in too late to stop what I was already in the process of doing. It suggested using Gaskacinch or Felco bond and never to use RTV anywhere near an oil pump.
Here's what I did. Flames welcome.
- Primed the pump by submerging intake in a pan of new oil and turning the rotor until oil appeared at the output
- Cleaned off all oil
- Applied ultrablack RTV into factory o-ring grooves ONLY
- Applied gasket
- Went to install pump
- Realized oil was coming out of hole still
- Allowed all oil to drain from hole, sprayed gasket with brake cleaner and wiped as best I could, gasket was stained a bit
- Went to install pump
- Applied ultrablack RTV to oil pan surface that pump sits on (some kind of red sealer was there before and was cleaned off)
- Smoothed out RTV towards outer edge of pan with a plastic scraper
- Put pump up to block
- Realize crank squared off areas are not lined up with pump
- Line up pump
- Put pump up to block
- Top part of gasket caught on something, gasket comes partially loose. then got RTV on the gasket while pulling it back down
- Attempt to rectify the previous problem by moving the gasket back into place and cleaning RTV off it, along with more oil that had come out of the pump onto the gasket (maybe priming it wasn't a great idea)
- Put pump up to block
- It's going on now...
- Notice part of seal lip is in FRONT of the crankshaft
- Attempt to fix seal lip, but seal spring came out
- Swear loudly
- Pull down pump to rectify that problem
- Reinstall seal spring back around seal lip with small screwdriver and verify lip is undamaged
- Put pump up to block
- Use flathead screwdriver held in my 3rd hand to get seal lip around crankshaft
- Pump is now on
- Install bottom screws (removed studs in favor of screws for ease of extraction) through oil pan into pump
- Install bolts through pump into block according to position they were removed in, as laid out on shop towel
- Realize one of 8 bolts is missing
- Swear some more and wonder how a bolt just walked off
- Torque all existing bolts to 10 Nm
- Leave overnight for RTV to setup I guess I'll get the missing bolt at the dealer on monday. But if I seriously fubared by using RTV I guess it's a moot issue. I didn't see any other way to seal up the oil pan to pump, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the wrong thing to put in those grooves.
Well, that's what I put on (gasket and crank seal), with the exception of ultrablack RTV in the grooves where the teardown manual claims o-rings belong in. Do yours sit on top of part of the oil pan, and if so what do you use to seal that up? I used more ultrablack there, spread evenly with a plastic scraper.
Maybe. I'm not so worried about that as I am the comment on the board that RTV is not safe to use around oil pumps. Providing a reason for that assertion would have helped.
Maybe the reason is that people tend to use way too much RTV, and it's better to use none than too much? I definitely don't have that problem, I am as sparing as possible when it comes to RTV. I can see how too much RTV would be a problem here - if it restricts an oil passage or if little strings of RTV get into the oil and stick to the pick-up screen, you are in big trouble.
I'm also worried about the oil I got on the gasket. That's usually a bad thing. How easily are leak paths formed when you get oil on them like that?
I torqued all the bolts to spec (10 Nm) but they still feel like they can be tightened without much more effort. I guess that just demonstrates how easy it is to over-torque them. Then again, I wonder if the factory torque specs would be different if they were spec'd with a gasket installed...
I could just be a worry-wart. Probably the feeling of maybe having to tear it down and do this again, or losing my motor, is instilling some regrets in me about the procedure. I can't identify anything specific I did wrong, just several murky areas.
He continues to insist that someone else did it. Liar, I was the only one in the garage, and I never lose/kick/slip on anything...
Your solution is simple. If there is a groove for an O ring, put one in, put the pump on, throw the gasket in the trash, have a nice day. It's all you need to seal the situation, no RTV required.
Reverse procedure to install. Apply suitable sealant to the oil pump gasket surface. Install bolts and torque to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm). Connect the battery negative cable. Start engine and check for leaks.
1.8L ENGINE
Apply a coat of silicone sealant to the oil pump gasket surface, making sure the no sealant plugs any oil pump ports. Install the pump to the cylinder block, then tighten the bolts and nuts to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm).
That'd be great, except finding o-rings of the correct size proved to be more difficult than I had time for. I exhausted the o-rings at Advance, and the dealer was not helpful aside from suggesting that maybe their pump came with the o-rings (the o-rings were not shown on their diagram, however).
Yup. That's why I would have much preferred to do that.
Interesting. I seriously think Haynes may be making things up when they mention the o-rings. That would be the fourth source to suggest that it simply be sealed up with a gasket or sealant.
Then I just got an answer from the people who sold the oil pump saying that they "can't help me find the o-rings". Same answer I got from Beck Arnley. That answer does not tell me anything about whether or not the o-rings are required, only that they do indeed exist. Where is a good place to look for weird o-rings? Advance and Autozone are not it.
Maybe an industrial hydraulics rebuilder, you know the kind of company that rebuilds Rams and pumps for Cherry picker and forklifts. Had a company like that make up hoses for a power steering system on old Jag. for me. They had a 4X16 ft. section of drawers with nothing but "O" rings. Look in the Yellow Pages under "Air and Hydraulics"
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