Oli change -- which is better?

Good points!

I agree that the repetitive cold start issue was neglected in this study. I have read that each cold start is equivalent to 500miles of hwy driving

Well - personally I feel that 3K severe oil change interval is a "one size fits all" solution to a more complex problem. We'd be better served if there was some sort of calculated "oil load" system based on operating/ambient conditions. Many European cars with computers do attempt some sort of flexible determination of when to change the oil depending on temps and how a car is driven. Of course many of these European manufacturers have higher standards for motor oil than the basic APL SL standard.

Of course these systems might not factor EVERYTHING - most notably operation in dusty conditions (perhaps some of them do). Perhaps they can be programmed to factor in user input of special conditions. I'd also like to see some sort of "change score" such that the owner can elect to be more conservative and change it before the computer indicates.

Not sure if it is the same. basically, you replace your oil plug with their special plug. When you need to change your oil you have a hose with an attachment that fits onto their plug that lets the oil flow out through the hose. No tools necessary.

I've never had any problems with FRAM products. I used their filters on my '86 Omni GLH Turbo from 40k to 153k when I sold it. I never had any oil, or oil filter, problems. I would use whatever 10W-30 oil was on sale that had the latest API designation on it. When I sold it the motor was still running strong. Maybe I was lucky?

------------- Alex

So do many American cars. Even the cheap-O GM Ecotec 4-cylinder has oil monitoring.

Frankly, I think its a placebo instrument for people that don't want to just keep a log of oil changes or do oil analysis from time to time. Commercial vehicle operators have been using oil analyses to set drain intervals for many years rather than inferring oil condition from operating conditions. Its now affordable to do that from time to time with your own oil at only $20 or so an analysis. Several people on the bobistheoilguy.com forums have done their own experiments and found that oil quality doesn't really start to suffer until on the order of 10,000 miles in their engines.

frequent oil

product.

This really is an amusing debate viewed from an European perspective where even Ford has had a 10,000 mile service interval for many years now and it is very common to have vehicles serviced at between 12000 and 25000 mile intervals. Almost no one changes oil at every 3000 miles and engines last just as long. 250,000 miles is common for high mileage vehicles with no engine wear problems. It is rare for automatic transmissions to exceed

200,000 miles though.

companies

money,

My friends Audi now has 180,000 miles on it in less than two years at

20,000 mile oil change intervals [sometimes stretched by a few thousand due to pressure of use] and it runs as good as new.

Well

quarterbacks out

concerned

Odd then that service intervals are being stretched yet engines last longer than ever. In fact it is due to a number of factors which broadly encompass better quality materials and improved technology. Just because an Audi can run for 20000 miles between services does not obviate that some other heap of shit might need its oil changed at every 3000 miles. This might seem odd to the brain dead who assume an engine is just an engine and that because engine 'a' needs 3000 changes then engine 'b' must also benefit.........Not so.

And

reliability

Not so. Plenty of cars do very high mileage and the reputation of the manufacturer is damaged by lack of longevity. Ford know this to their cost in Europe and so do Rover/Leyland or whatever they are called at a point in time. Toyota have supreme reliability combined with standard setting longevity. They do not have particularly long service intervals but still, in Europe they have 10,000 mile service intervals on standard dino oil. No problems. [few V6 Toyota engines sold here though ;-) ].

Huw

?

WTF is a double filter?

quarterbacks

Most European cars with oil changes of 12000 miles or less use standard API SL oil without a service indicator system. Above this figure some do have flexible service intervals and also use longer drain potential oil which may, or may not be synthetic, depending on application. I personally use a 60,000 mile+ potential oil to the very highest standard that is only semi-synthetic. Whether an oil is synthetic or not is secondary to the Standards which an oil meets and is largely not linked to how the base oil has originated.

Or they might have more efficient air filters.

Perhaps

conditions.

The whole point is that the interval is varied by the driving style and conditions and also by the condition of the oil in the sump which is measured dynamically. From personal experience with a Mercedes I can tell you that I was as surprised as anyone when I changed the oil before the car told me to, at which point the service interval display started to count the 'wrong' way and automatically extended the interval by a further 4000 miles without any prompting. It 'knew' that the oil was cleaner than previously and took account of this in its calculated service interval.

Do you think that the driver is shackled in some way to the computer interval? No, anyone can change the oil early at what he/she feels is an appropriately early point, just as I illustrated above. The service indicator can be reset or not as appropriate. In the case of Mercedes it even tells you in the owners handbook how to re-set the service computer and it is common knowledge for most other cars so equipped.

Huw

Truth is an absolute defense to libel.

loose-tolerance

reliability

No, it is not a rebranded Fumoto.

It is a fitting with a spring loaded ball valve that opens when you attach the other fitting and hose that comes in the package.

It takes up less space than a Fumoto, and I have just installed one on my pantera, where a Fumoto takes up too much space.

I haven't tested it fully yet.

Thomas

Synthetic. The added cost is mice nuts. If one spent an extra $12 by changing it every 6k miles that's insignificant compared to the $400 spent on gasoline and the $100 to $500 spent on insurance and taxes in the same interval.

On this point, we totally agree. If Consumer Reports did an article on oil filters, I wouldn't put much faith in it. They have, over the years, given good marks to shitteaux products.

It is hard to indict Fram for poor quality based only upon examination \ of the innards. Sure, it looks cheap, but exactly what did we expect of it (in hard cold numbers), and how did it perform? There is little actual data, but lots of opinions.

And here I abstain from ready agreement. I do not put total faith in oil analyses as indicators of oil or filter quality or engine damage, yet. The data is real enough except for the occasional error that slips through the cracks, but the interpretation and validation is lacking.

I'm curious as to why you'd disagree. Oil analysis has been used for decades in applications like over-the-road trucks, locomotives, ships, etc. not only to tell the operator when an internal component is failing, but to tell when the OIL needs to be changed.

Now, I'm not saying that you should fork over for an oil analysis EVERY oil change, but doing one every 4 to 6 changes should tell you if the oil is getting weak and you should shorten your drain intervals, and itshould reveal any metals that shouldn't be there (babbit, aluminum, and copper indicating bearing wear for example). It can even spot silicates (dust getting past the air filter, or silicate containing antifreeze contaminating the oil) and other impending problems. Oil analysis showing a high bearing metal reading will tell you that excessive wear is occuring WELL before you could find evidence of enough wear to show up on a micrometer.

Well, I suppose even the wheel is "amusing" to primitives :-p

C'mon, smile. The superior tone just BEGGED for that... :-)

Psst. Its the OIL that's better moreso than the engines. Most of the wearing parts of engines have changed relatively little since the early

60s when nickel/silicon alloy iron was found to be pretty much optimum for cylinder walls and tri-metal bearings became commonplace. Even though aluminum blocks have replaced iron, the cylinder LINERS by and large still have the same metallurgy, and that's where the wear happens. Same for bearings. Even things like piston-to-wall clearance and bearing clearance have changed glacially (if at all) over the past 40 years. All the dramatic improvements have been in fuel/air/ignition management... and in lubricating oil technology.

My 73 Plymouth 318 has 431,000 miles on it and runs just as good as new (which you're right, doesn't prove that some piece of sh*t Audi could go that far.) It started out life on pretty primitive oils, too. Since its been on Mobil 1, I've ranged between 6000 and 9000 miles per change, and undoubtedly could go a good deal further. Folks on the bobistheoilguy.com web site have posted many oil analyses which tend to indicate that oil additives that keep the total base number stable seem to start petering out in most oils by or before 10,000 miles, though. Sure, you can go longer... but why?

I don't have any actual experience with one (yet). I'm just wondering if there's some sort of (mileage) count down. I thought perhaps there might be a score (maybe on a scale of 100) telling the user about how far the oil has progressed towards the next recommended change.

I was pretty sure that the indicator could be reset.

More fuel for the fire : I have owned my 85 Chevy Caprice with the 305 engine since '89, and have put 302,000 miles on it myself. It had 57,000 on it when I got it, now it has 359K. Knock on wood, the engine has never had the valve covers off. I change the oil and filter every 3 to 5 K, and I use the cheapest oil I can find. I used Fram filters for many years until Fram started getting attacked by internet motorheads. Now I use what ever cheapo filter I can find. No problems related to oil.

The main problem now is the suspension parts wearing out, and the paint looks horrible.

Just one thing - the typical oil analysis only reveals elements and not compounds. I just sent in a sample to Blackstone Labs. Their literature mentions that high silicon levels aren't always a cause for alarm. Silicon can come from dust or antifreeze, but it can also be harmless silicone leaching from sealants or gaskets.

True, but you have to know how to interpret readings. Silicon is a "red flag" to look for the source (are you losing coolant? is your air filter installed right?) but not a dire warning. Bearing material is a serious warning. A low TBN means you need to change oil more often, normal TBN means you can go longer on an oil change, etc. etc.

computer

Mercedes

equipped.

wondering

My Mercedes ML actually started a mileage count down to the next service after being re-set at a service. It would count down either slower or faster than the true distance covered depending on driving style and conditions, including the condition of the oil. In fact when I changed the oil without resetting the service computer, the display actually counted the 'wrong' way over about 500 miles to the extent of adding 2000 or more miles to the next service point. Damned clever and far more impressive than I could have ever imagined.

My current BMW X5 has a display with five or six lit blocks. As the next service becomes nearer the blocks extinguish at regular milage intervals until a 'service due' warning lights up and then an 'overdue' warning some 500 miles later.

I believe that some vehicles in the US have an inferior system which kids the owner that it is a sophisticated monitor when in fact it is a simple reverse milometer which counts down a set milage to the next service with no monitoring parameters whatsoever. I suppose that you get what you pay for. Low car price may mean low technology and frequent services being needed. High European car prices and the demand for technologically advanced vehicles by a higher proportion of the driving public result in long service intervals with state of the art materials and oils.

Not only can it be reset but it can be reset by the owner, although BMW do not publicise this fact.

Huw