Repair Fraud?

The analogy doesn't hold, because with food in a restaurant, the labour costs are being bundled into the total cost. You don't get a split out between materials and labour, in part because most of the cost of the meal is labour.

On the other hand, when you buy a bottle of wine in a restaurant, the only labour involved is the waiter or sommelier going into the basement and bringing it up to your table. So the markup on that should be much lower than on the food, which it is. Although it's still outrageous in some cases.... certainly much higher than the degree to which any mechanics mark parts up.

--scott

Hardly relevant. That breakfast sandwich is a fixed price for a known commodity and is very easy to compare the costs to other restaurants or DIY. Auto work is in most cases hourly and again I thing it's misleading to misapply costs to parts when it should rightfully be applied to labor or shop expenses.

Pete C.

Even higher is the markup of soda at most fast food places. From "Fast Food Nation" as quoted in

A fast food soda that sells for $1.29 costs the restaurant about ten cents, a markup of more than 1200 percent.

Oh, shove it. You know I meant "most or all mechanics I have dealt with". Just as with anyone who posts from their experiences (whose else can we post from?)

Shove what exactly? You know, someone reading your post who really didn't know any better (not that there's a shortage) might just take your alleged expertise as gospel and suffer any/all manner of indignity as a result.

The mechanics that you have dealt with are all idiots/poor businessmen/dead beats who can't pay their parts bills? Can't think of any reasons besides those three that a professional shop would invite a customer to supply their own parts.

Oh, I don't know, factual information perhaps?

Scott Dorsey wrote: <snipped> The analogy doesn't hold, because with food in a restaurant, the labour costs are being bundled into the total cost. You don't get a split out between materials and labour, in part because most of the cost of the meal is labour.

On the other hand, when you buy a bottle of wine in a restaurant, the only labour involved is the waiter or sommelier going into the basement and bringing it up to your table. So the markup on that should be much lower than on the food, which it is. Although it's still outrageous in some cases.... certainly much higher than the degree to which any mechanics mark parts up.

--scott

..."most of the cost of the meal is labour.''  Not to put too fine a point on it, but on average the split is usually:

25-35% food/beverage costs 35-40% labor 25-30% occupancy, interest, depreciation, taxes, advertising, linens, etc. (i.e., all other non food and labor costs) 10-15% profit

which shows three things...

food and labor costs are alot closer to one another than you might think if your total costs are on the high side (105%) you don't make any profit, which is one of the major reasons why so many restaurants go out of business in the first 5 years. at only a 10-15% profit, most restaurant owners aren't millionaires :)

"...On the other hand, when you buy a bottle of wine in a restaurant, the only labour involved is the waiter or sommelier going into the basement and bringing it up to your table. So the markup on that should be much lower than on the food, which it is. Although it's still outrageous in some cases..."

Either there are words missing/out of place, or I'm not getting the point.  The markup on beverages is where most restaurants make significant money, wine especially because it appreciates over time.  If you assign value based on labor cost then you're right, there's very little labor in selecting, uncorking, and pouring a bottle or wine, but assigning value to wine isn't done that way.  Wine is bought and sold on its market value.  A bottle of wine is a finite entity - it is one of the total number for that vintage; there will always be less and never more of that particular vintage...ergo, you can't make more of it and the retail price almost always increases.  The wise restauranteur is the one who is able to stockpile large quantities purchased cheaply and then sell it 10 years later for outrageous profits.

As far as the OP's egg, bacon, and bread breakfast analogy, I interpreted it in the context of the entire thread, and came away with

- whereas in order to save money on auto repairs you can walk into your mechanic's shop with your own parts, however, the same can't be said for your local Denny's.  And as such, you don't even think of complaining even when you know the real cost for that Gut Bustin' All American breakfast feast is much less than the total on the check, but you're quick to complain when the same situation arise with your mechanic (plumber, electrician, carpenter, et al).

IMHO, to sum up what was best said by others is - you shop around for a good mechanic, when you find one stop shopping.  Stick with him or her, because in the long haul you'll make out much better than researching, comparing, getting estimates, and wasting your own time every time you need a win nut tightened (sarcasm intended, if not apparent).

FWIW, I apply the same sentiment to my barber and accountant.  I found a good barber, then I moved.  Now I have to drive an hour (one way) to see her and get my hair cut...sure hope my accountant doesn't move to Arizona like he's talked about...It'll be a long drive there from NJ...but, I digress...

Where is the fraud in this transaction. I see none. Did you review the repair estimate before approving the work? If so, did the mechanic do all that was promised on the estimate? Or did you do as I suspect and just leave the car with the mechanic to "fix the problem".

You could just as easily prefix "In my experience" to any post in this group from any poster, and then there would be no need to split hairs in this fashion. You know, kind of like you do in real life when someone tells you anything.

Thanks for the English lesson. I'll be more careful when giving free advice to people whom I assume are well capable of thinking on their own. *sigh*

Agave

In article , Agave interpreted it in the context of the entire thread, and came away with -

I'll point out where Mr. Underwood's brain meets the brick wall.

The bring your own eggs and bacon into Denny's analogy wasn't invented in this thread, it has existed for as long as I've been a mechanic (over 35 years) and as such, it IS the prevalent belief/practice in the auto repair industry. Parts are marked up because there is a time and labor element associated with their procurement, inventory and management. There is also a represented investment in having them sit on a shelf, i.e., if I put $10,000 in a bank, it earns interest, why shouldn't that same $10,000 tied up in parts give me a monetary return also? Any shop that foregoes making a profit on parts is run by a fool who is soon to be broke. Any shop that allows customers to supply parts is ignorant of liability and obviously lacks experience and hasn't considered what happens (lost time) when the part is wrong for the application, defective out of the box or needs warranty consideration at some later point. The shop owner gets to set the rules, and more importantly, he is responsible for maintaining control over that shop. Can't be done with customers like Underwood who cart in their own cheap crappy parts .

Those who bemoan parts and labor being listed separately have obviously never owned or run a business and are ignorant of possible tax laws, inventory control and basic record keeping. If a job was done three months ago and needed warranty, wouldn't it make sense for the shop to be able to refer to their records in order to determine exactly what parts were involved or what maintenance needs might be due? If you went into Best Buy and bought a DVD player, wouldn't you expect the receipt to _actually_ list the product and stock number, or would you be satisfied with a receipt that merely said; Electronic gizmo......... $150.00?

Anyone who has a problem with these two concepts merely needs to pony up to the pump, take the necessary classes, sink fifty or sixty grand into hand tools, another forty grand+ into capitol equipment and fix their own vehicle.

Very good advice. price shoppers (choppers) receive very little of my attention/time.

Um, the auto parts place down the street maintains a larger inventory, has employees who only deal with parts, and yet they still make a profit.

The local small garage has a smaller inventory and does not (usually) have employees dedicated to parts, and yet they need to charge from

2x-4x what the parts place down the street charges? Total BS.

No liability for customer supplied parts. The invoice states customer supplied parts, no warranty. They only have liability for the work they performed.

The shop owner does indeed set the rules, and if he sets them such that it drives away customers, he fails.

Um, no, I ran a business for a while, although it was a service business with no inventory to speak of.

Records and an invoice are not the same thing. There should be records for each time the particular customer has patronized the establishment, not just a mess of invoice copies with no way to cross reference them.

How exactly does that relate to a sale that includes services (labor) in addition to parts? Try purchasing a home theater systems *installed* from a retailer. Will that same DVD player that they sell uninstalled for $150.00 suddenly appear on the invoice as $300.00? Hell no, the parts will show the same parts price, and the installation labor line will show the labor cost. Anything other that this ranges from deceptive to fraudulent.

I in fact do this since I have been unable to find an independent mechanic or dealer that is able to do quality work and have it done when promised. Two examples of this problem:

Timeliness: Made an appointment a couple days in advance to have all brakes on my truck done, along with rear axle seals (5 min when you have the axle apart for the brakes). I told them that I would drop the truck off the night before so they would have it when the mechanic got in at

7am, and that it had to be ready for pickup by 5pm the same day. 10 hours is enough time to do this job several times over, even working at a very leisurely pace. I got back into town at about 4pm and called to check on the truck only to find that they hadn't even started on it. I of course went down, picked up the untouched truck, and ripped them a few new bodily orifices while I was at it. They lost that business.

Quality: Brought my truck in to the dealer to get the clutch replaced. Why it needed to be replaced is another story of warrantee fraud as a clutch should not die at 25,000 miles. My other truck at the time was at

165,000 miles on the original clutch. At any rate I picked up the completed truck (on time amazingly) and proceeded to drive home. Along the way I periodically heard a rapid clunking sound. I stopped in a parking lot to take a look, but without fully crawling under the truck I didn't see anything obviously wrong. When I got home I got on the creeper to inspect more thoroughly and found the the center carrier bearing for the drive shaft was not bolted to the cross member. The clunking sound was the U joint smacking the side of the fuel tank under the appropriate loading (forget whether it was accel or decel). It chewed a hole through the plastic fuel tank shield, but fortunately did not damage the actual fuel tank.

I know there are good mechanics out there somewhere, but so far I haven't found one.

Pete C.

I guess it would be BS if a mechanic made the same wages as the parts droid. It would also be BS if the parts droid were the one who has to absorb the labor in the event that the part fails while under warranty, something that happens quite frequently. Do you know for a fact that this particular small garage procures their parts from the parts place down the street? Or are you comparing apples to oranges?

Something to make an attorney laugh.

If a customer is driven away because of something as inane as mark up or book keeping, he wasn't a desirable customer to begin with.

Is it the same in all states? was this discussion _ever_ qualified by a certain state?

In the auto repair business they are the exact same thing. In my business, they are the exact same thing as far as what the customer is privy to seeing (excludes my check book register and charge card statements, etc.).

Okay, how about we cover the extra labor needed on account of having to do extra book work by marking up the parts. Printing two copies of form X takes a lot less time (actually, no time) than having to generate copies of form X and form Y.

That point was addressing those who bemoan invoices that list parts and labor separately instead of doing the invoice as a canned job. The home entertainment market is a whole lot more competitive than auto repair, so using it as an example of why not to mark parts up falls short, not to mention that the warranty labor after the installation is a whole different animal. had it occurred to you that the labor involved in replacing a speaker with a blown voice coil is a lot less than (say) what happens if a timing belt or water pump fails?

Of course there is no possibility that the job ahead of yours ran into trouble, or that someone may have called in sick or had a funeral to attend, is there?

I'd have to think that this was the result of the mechanic being interrupted while doing the re-assembly, something which is a big problem in the industry. I went for a ride last fall with a friend who had just purchased a 1969 GTO, he had new tires mounted on the wheels and hung the tires and wheels himself (because he likes to putz), we got about

6 miles away and began hearing a clunking noise, the left front wheel had but one lugnut left. I guess it means that we're all human.

Problems occur in every aspect of life/business, it isn't the problems themselves but how they are handled that is important. Did you call the dealership and allow them the opportunity to correct their mistake, or did you handle it yourself and resign yourself to condemning them for what happened.

As for warranty fraud on a clutch on a new vehicle; I don't see how such a thing can exist. No OEM that I know of warranties their clutches, this is something that you agreed to at the time of purchase.

The garage should be procuring parts from the area wholesale supplier. They should be able to pass that part along at roughly the same price that it would cost from the local ACME/NAPA/Whatever quality parts place, and still have a reasonable markup on it to cover the small amount of handling cost.

Attorneys will litigate anything where they feel they will get paid, regardless of the merits of the case.

If said owner feels he has enough business to not be concerned with loosing customers due to deceptive invoicing practices and can stay in business then he must be in a good market.

It is substantially the same in all states, except perhaps for CA and MA.

Perhaps for auto repair businesses that are still in the stone ages. Basic contact/customer management software for small businesses is not that expensive.

If you're still doing "book work" that's where your problem is. With proper software you don't have to generate forms X and Y, you only have to enter the details of the work (parts/hours/supplies) once and then print the invoice. The customer record will store all the information.

I don't recall anyone complaining about that. My point was the receptiveness of excessive markup on parts to cover what should be included in the labor rate or listed separately as shop time. This is a deceptive practice to allow the posting of artificially low "labor" rates.

I never said not to mark up the parts, however that markup should be comparable to the quality auto parts store down the street. You should be purchasing the parts at wholesale cost and marking them up to retail cost, not 2x-4x retail.

Actually, I did stereo / VCR repair at a shop for a while and I can assure you that the labor costs are higher than you think. As for the blown voice coil, that is considered abuse and would not be covered under warranty anyway. Blowing your amp by shorting the speaker wires is also not covered under warranty.

No possibility whatsoever. The shop had my cell and pager numbers and could easily have contacted me to let me know they would not be able to meet the original deadline and to request instructions on what they should do. They also did not give any such excuse when I picked up the truck.

Certainly a possibility that the mechanic was interrupted, but it still shows the lack of a final QC review before taking the truck off the lift. It also calls into question whether they did a road test after the repair. I would certainly expect a once around the block after a clutch replacement and if they did that they certainly should have noticed the clunking. They were quite lucky it didn't puncture the fuel tank and send the truck up in flames.

I take it he didn't use a torque wrench. I just did the brakes on my truck and I used the torque wrench on every fastener that had a torque spec. listed in the factory service manual.

Both of the above stories were at the same dealer. The had a second chance and failed that one as well.

They aren't warranted for wear, but the certainly should be covered for defects in manufacturing. A clutch on a 1T truck should not fail 25,000 miles. My other truck did 165,000+ miles on the original clutch, and in this case the failure was not related to wear, in fact the problem was failure to release fully. Nobody made any claims that the failure was due to wear or abuse. At any rate a company that fails to stand behind their product when there is a clear manufacturing defect will get no further business from me.

Pete C.

Sometimes that is possible, other times it's not. That area wholesaler may be 30-40 miles away and only deliver to a given town once a day, fine if a customer doesn't mind getting his car back as anticipated (where've I heard that before?).

I know of no one charging more for a NAPA part than what a civilian can buy it for [there] over the counter, in fact, I've had experiences where Joe Blow off the street bought a part for less than I pay for it as a wholesale customer. As for how this relates to the OP (basva), we don't know where his parts were sourced from, only that he priced them at a NAPA franchise.

Not "litigation", more like advice as in 'don't stick your neck out where it is easily chopped off.'

There is no evidence of "deceptive invoicing practices", listing everything involved in a repair job in black and white is precisely contrary to what you're claiming.

No it's not.

Repair shop invoicing/repair order/management software is highly integrated to the point where it posts current pricing at major parts suppliers, labor times, profit margin and a host of other features. I can think of but one repair shop in this county that still hand writes repair orders carbon copy style (which gets the customer the exact same document as what the shop keeps as a record, which is the way it was always done), of the various trade specific software programs I'm familiar with (three), all generate identical copies whether they are for the customer or shop records, haven't seen one yet which gives the option of dumbing it down for the customer.

I don't have a problem, I have five computer (six if you count my PDA which can access the others via Bluetooth) running.

And the shop would be nuts to not print and file a hard copy. I've had major computer crashes and it was the hard copies that saved my ass.

Then you're not paying attention. It comes up quite frequently in the auto.tech groups, possibly mentioned in this thread also, but since this thread has been fragmented, it would take some doing to reference back...

So, you'd rather see a line item entry for time spent calling the parts store to procure the part? Flat fee or straight time? What happens if the parts store is busy and the mechanic is put on hold? One way is unfair to the customer, the other unfair to the mechanic. If the labor rates are artificially low, how much per hour do you suppose they would have to be raised? $30 per hour? $40 per hour?

And you're seeing this 2X-4X no matter where you go?

I'm referring to how hard it would be to get that speaker out of where it's installed so it can be worked on, (specific to your installed home theater system vs. Best Buy price analogy) not the specifics of 'who's at fault.'

Your reasons for choosing this shop to begin with were? And the thing with excuses is, well, they sound like excuses.

Agreed.

He didn't own one at the time, but aside from that, I'm certain that something distracted him since the other three wheels didn't come loose.

Good habit.

But specifically, when you found the loose center support bearing, did you call them and tell them to send a tow truck on there dime?

It's the OEM who is responsible for the defect in manufacture, yet your grudge is against the franchised dealership who is caught in the middle. BTW, what brand truck was it?

Fine as long as the options and costs are communicated to the customer so they can decide if it can wait a day to save a few dollars.

Certainly sales can distort the pricing. I would still expect wholesale to be at least 10% less than normal retail for the same quality part.

Correct, we don't know where the parts were sourced from and we don't know about any quality differences between what was sourced and what he priced. It is likely however that the parts were marked up considerably which lead to his post here. If the parts were only marked up 10% and the labor rate was a bit higher it is unlikely he would be complaining.

Due to the thread fragmentation I don't have the original numbers, but if he priced the part at NAPA for $5 and was charged say $8 on the invoice I doubt he'd be complaining. My point is that I want to see an honest accounting of costs vs. the part markup loading of the cost to allow an apparent lower labor rate.

Spent a lot of time with trial lawyers, a common joke among them is "it's the 95% of lawyers that give the 5% a bad name". Trust me, as long as *they* will get paid, they take pretty much anything.

It's not deceptive to price a part at several times it's actual cost?

Care to give examples of where it's drastically different (other than CA and MA)? I said *substantially* the same not exactly the same.

My reference was to the ability to maintain a complete record of the customers and vehicles history more easily than hardcopy.

Good. Rather a requirement these days since a lot of manuals are going electronic.

That is what backups are for. If you conduct business on a computer, you should be backing up the data nightly and the backup media should be rotated through off site storage. For a small operation this could be a CD-RW/DVD-RW and it could be brought home each night. The main thing is it allows recovery if the shop burns to the ground.

Additionally with the low cost of hard drives these days and the availability of both hardware and software RAID options it makes sense to mirror the disks on the system so that a disk failure does not even cause down time, much less loss of data. I had a system I manage loose a disk the other night, no impact at all, the disk was auto replaced with a spare by the controller and I replaced the dead disk at my leisure. Used to be expensive to do this, pretty cheap now.

I recall this thread beginning with a complaint about what appeared to be a grossly inflated part price.

That would fall under the labor time. Time spent procuring parts is just as legitimate as time spent installing them.

Unfair how? You should be paying for the time the mechanic is spending working on your repair. Parts procurement is part of that work.

Based on the $60-$70/hr I typically see, probably about $20-$30/hr would cover the difference in not grossly inflating parts costs. If this makes the labor cost seem too high then break out the shop overhead portion separately and only include the labor related cost in the labor rate. $5 for the part, $50/hr labor, $30/hr shop time.

I haven't gone to a large number of shops, but that is indeed the range I've typically seen.

I'm not quite following here. If it was a customer supplied part and the failure was due to a defect in the part and not the installation, then the customer is responsible for that labor.

The dealer?

Yes, indeed they do. And in this case the cause of the delay is pretty much irrelevant, it is the handling of that delay that is the problem.

That's the nice thing about the torque wrench, if you're not sure if you did that lug, you just do it again.

No, I went into my shop and got a couple suitable bolts to secure the bearing. I then called the shop and let them know about the problem and stopped by the next day so they could see the gash in the fuel tank shield. There was little question the bolts I installed were not the originals since all I had on hand in the proper size were stainless.

It's the OEM that I've blacklisted due to their warranty fraud, not the dealership. Of course it's indirectly the dealership since they won't be selling me another new vehicle. The dealership was dumped after the two significant service issues noted above (and some smaller annoyances).

The truck is a Chevy K3500 dually. It's generally done fine other than the defective original clutch (141,000 miles now and the replacement clutch is still fine), and it's propensity to eat rear axle seals.

I just did the rear axle seals for the fourth time, the first time was under warranty done at the dealer and the next two seal replacements were also at the dealer in conjunction with brake jobs. When I just did them myself I found that the hub on the problem side was buggered up in the seal seating area, clearly from someone trying to pull the seal.

Since this was the first time I'd been into the hub I can only assume that this was done at the dealer. I'm not sure how they managed this since if you're pulling the seal properly the seal itself is protecting the hub. You of course mangle the seal, but the metal of the seal unit protects the hub surfaces.

Pete C.

The problem comes up where the mechanic/shop/parts house cant come up with the required parts, here is a very good example of this happening...

The mechanic I took my wifes car to said he wouldn't install the parts I provided because he couldn't warrentee them, I'd have to buy the parts from his shop, I said fine, I don't have time to do the job myself, get the parts, and do it, but then called me the next day to say the parts are non-existant. I told him the parts are on the front seat... Install them...

So there are times when the mechanic has no choice in the matter, and with the vehicles SWMBO and I own, more often than not, they have no choice but to install the parts I provide...

Also known as padding the bill,

If it is actually on the shelf, I'd have no trouble paying for it, however, waiting a week or more for a part to be shipped from England is not an option

Okay, How about a little test...

Find a rear wheel bearing for a '72 Capri. I'll give you 2 days to come up with a part # and price...

SteveL

Problem is, now while we're saving the customer $5 on brake shoes and $7 on an exhaust pipe, workflow thru the shop is disrupted, that brake inspection has to go back together so the hoist can be freed up to do other work, duplicate labor, wasted motion, jockey, shuffle, yadda-yadda-yadda.

My wholesale discount from a dealership is 20%, my wholesale discount from NAPA and CarQuest varies from between 50% to 20% depending on the line code of the product and the buying power of the individual store. Now, these may seem extreme to you (assuming I charge the customer full list price) but compared to pharmacies and drug companies who routinely have mark up ranging from 1000% to 240,000%, I (we) are just amateurs.

Actually, we don't even know if he's reading the invoice correctly. There was no information offered as to whether he approached shop management for an explanation, so I suspect that it didn't occur. What I did glean from the OPs post was a typical case of buyers remorse.

Fine, when you open your super dooper repair shop with your name on the marquis, you'll certainly have full access to such information, until then and unless you're the IRS or my accountant, no dice, you aren't entitled to see mine or any other business's records. Your neighbor may not mind that you steam open their mail and read it, but I sure as hell do.

'cept that he wasn't paid anything, and the advice given was bound to create a situation where he wouldn't need to get paid anything.

No, it isn't. Ever hear of price point marketing? Wanna take a stab at what the branch cost of a Snap-On branded engine analyzer is that sold for $12,000? (hint, knock a zero off and you'll be with-in $300) No one forces anyone to buy anything. Auto repair is not a right, it is a consumer commodity and the morality involved is no different than the 1000% Mickey D's makes on a cup of Coca-Cola. It's called "capitalism." Does Bill gates really need all that money? Apparently the world thinks so because they're the ones who put it in his bank account.

Nope, I have neither the time nor the inclination to pour thru each states tax laws, and it wouldn't sway the total discussion one way or another to any appreciable amount.

It _is_ maintained easily, it's still on the hard drive and a few mouse clicks brings it up. The shop doesn't _have_ to print themselves a copy, I merely commented that that is what I and others do. Either way, the view on the screen will look essentially the same as what was printed, the notion of two versions, one being detailed for the shop and one being bland to ease the customers eyes, ain't happening.

As mine are and is really the only way that makes sense.

It is. I merely choose another layer of protection, and since I have to maintain a paper file for quarterly sales tax, it takes up zero space and the cost of the paper and toner is minimal.

I use a zip drive since the files are not that large being strictly text.

That's cool.

It did indeed, but without seeing the invoice and knowing from a first hand account what actually was done, neither of us know for sure. At some point, the OP probably had to authorize the work to be done at a stated price, once that happens, an agreeable business transaction has taken place. The fact that the OP experienced a case of buyers remorse afterward is more a study in psychology than it is a study in mechanics morals. He could have just as easily come here and posted that he got $XX.xx quote from shop A and $YY.yy quote from shop Z, but to actually _see_ something like that happen in rec.auto.tech would be a rare bird indeed.

No, actually it doesn't. Labor time (as published) doesn't even include diagnostic time. Labor time is literally the time spent where a wrench or socket is removing or installing a component or fastener.

Yes it is. That is one reason that I sell them for more than I pay for them.

No it's not. Obviously you are not familiar with how automotive labor time is time studied.

And that totals differently from $10 for the part, $75 for labor how? And more importantly, what's the big deal?

So your position on this is based on anecdotal evidence of a very small sample size.

Okay, so explain for me why it is that the customers hardly ever understand it that way. There are almost always crocodile tears, and when that doesn't work, next comes the obligatory "well, you guys must have screwed it up then." Fact is, anyone showing up with his own parts has probably found himself in over his head on the job to begin with, and as a result of that lacking skill level, probably wasn't qualified to make that particular parts choice to begin with. Pete, listen up; been there, done that, tried to be a nice guy, got the complimentary hat and all that, and every time had it rammed up my ass so far, it knocked a few teeth loose. NO, we do not install customer supplied parts, no exceptions, not even just this once. I have had plenty of instances where I was asked to install customer bought ball joints, carburetors, rear axle components, remote starters, you name it, never, not once had one of those individuals bought a quality name brand component, it's always cheap shit bubble packed garbage that WILL adversely effect my reputation. I'd much rather be bad mouthed for having rules and sticking to them than being bad mouthed over a job gone sour because someone stuffed chinese knock offs in my face with the promise that they understood ALL the ramifications (which they never really do).

Whom ever it was that dropped the ball on your brake work. There is no compelling reason to go to a dealership for a brake job.

That's one reason I will never work in a dealership again. Too many layers. Too much confusion. Too much I don't give a shit.

That's the thing, the not sure part never even crossed his mind. Being a non professional automotive wise, he didn't have the discipline or the mind set, that's why adherence to rules is so important.

So they never got the opportunity to correct their mistake. I have to believe that they'd have straightened it out for zero charge, under similar circumstances, you know a doctor wouldn't have.

Sorry, I had to go back and review that you had two issues with the clutch repair, the original failure and the subsequent choke.

Well, GM does love to experiment and use the consumer as a guinea pig.

Good grief!

A'yup, I've worked next to plenty of these guys.