Self driving cars and moral decisions-who will live, who will die?

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On 10/27/2018 01:51 PM, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

My car should protect ME. It should hit whichever target is less likely to injure the occupant. Anything else reflects personal or cultural bias and is inappropriate.
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Cheers, Bev
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The Real Bev wrote:

So, with 3 "target" choices, 1 - Hard, immovable object. Your car absorbs full impact. 2 - Moderately crushable object. 50/50 split. 3 - Soft, deformable object. Target absorbs full impact.
You would choose to run down the group of Nuns escorting children in a school crosswalk. Thank you for being such a wonderful Human Being. Where do you live? I need to remember not to go there.
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On 10/29/2018 11:43 AM, Sanity Clause wrote:

self-driving car.
Trusting a machine to make hard moral decisions is stupid. Suppose there were TWO groups of nuns and children? What about a group of Girl Scouts? What if they were Boy Scouts? What if they were prisoners being escorted to the courthouse for arraignment?
Assuming the nuns were actually competent to protect children, they would NOT step out into the crosswalk until they saw no cars unlikely to be able to stop in time. Physics is a real bitch sometimes, and god doesn't suspend her laws just because someone goes to church a lot.
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Cheers, Bev
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice,
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you won't have a choice once they become widespread. they're already on the road in some cities.
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On 10/29/2018 12:55 PM, nospam wrote:

My Corolla will last forever. Unless gasoline engines and human drivers are outlawed I'll never have to be the occupant of a self-driving car.
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Cheers, Bev
I have six locks on my door all in a row. When I go out, I lock
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no it won't. nothing lasts forever.

that's very foolish. autonomous vehicles will be much safer than ones driven by humans, which sadly, is not particularly difficult.
drunk driving, texting, driver inattention, fatigue, etc., will all be a thing of the past.
and if you call a taxi, uber, lyft, airport shuttle, etc., there's an ever increasing chance that what arrives will be autonomous. uber is already testing that.
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Not forever, but damned long is certainly possible. I've been driving the same car for over 40 years.
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that's the very rare exception, not the rule, and you know it.
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At the moment the average car in the U.S. is over a decade old. That means that many are older.
Anyone can make a car last for decades if they have a mind to. It helps to start with a vehicle that is durable to begin with.
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what matters is the distribution, not the average.
your 40 year old vehicle is an outlier. very few cars on the road today are anywhere near that old.

they can, but there's little point in that unless it's a classic car that will hold its value.
newer cars are *much* safer, more economical, more comfortable and far less likely to need a repair leaving one stranded.
in any event, the original point was that nothing lasts forever, and it doesn't.
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The point is economical motoring, not going into debt slavery for new vehicles, and having a vehicle you can easily repair yourself without the need for a lot of specialized equipment.

I've never broken down to the point where I could not easily get going again using simple hand tools. Comfort is a judgement call, but there are plenty of older cars that are quite comfortable. (I'm perfectly happy with mine.) Lower gas mileage is more than made up for by not spending may thousands of dollars on new vehicles, and having 3-point belts, side impact beams, and padded dash are safe enough for me.

A point which is meaningless. The earth and sun will not last forever either, but that is not an immediate concern. You can make a car last a very long time in terms of a human lifetime. See Cuba for an extreme example.
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very, very few people repair their own vehicles, and the types of repairs an older vehicle will need are often beyond their skill set, such as an engine rebuild, transmission overhaul, body work, etc. those repairs are also not cheap and will cost more than what the vehicle is worth, and in many cases, parts are not available, making repairs not possible.

that doesn't mean others haven't. an older vehicle is more likely to have an unexpected breakdown than a newer one. very simple.

there are, but newer vehicles more so.

as opposed to many thousands of dollars on repairs for the older vehicle.

but not for others.
newer vehicles have airbags, anti-lock brakes, traction control, attention alert, lane departure warning, adaptive cruise control, collision avoidance radar and limited autonomy. when full autonomy becomes common, they'll be even safer.

you can, but there's no good reason to do so.
at some point, the cost to repair and maintain it is more than the value of the vehicle, at which point replacement is a better choice.
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On 10/30/2018 06:22 PM, nospam wrote:

BUT some/most/all of the above are not repairable by the people who used to regularly repair their own cars. Additional safety features are really nice, but they come at a price.
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so what? neither is the rest of the vehicle, other than simple stuff like oil changes, air filters, spark plugs, etc. they're also *far* more reliable and don't need much beyond that.
the days of home repairs are mostly gone, and not just cars either.

everything does.
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Perhaps for yourself and city folk who don't know how to hold a wrench. Not for me and most of the people I know.
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ad hominem.
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That has not been my experience. None of the major drivetrain components (engine, transmission, rear axle) have ever been apart on my car. No body work has been required, though I don't sweat the small stuff.

However, any such breakdowns are likely to be repairable with simple hand tools and inexpensive parts. Very simple.

Once again, a judgement call. For the many thousands of dollars I've saved I am quite comfortable indeed.

Hasn't happened. I have spent very little on repairs.

That's their call. I'm not interested.

I don't care about any of those features, and having worked in the computer industry since the 1970s do not have the blind faith in technology rampant amongst many people, particularly the young. I will not be buying into any of it.

You keep saying that. You are wrong.

I have not reached that point in 40 years. If it does occur I'll be satisfied that I have gotten the full value of the vehicle and would look for another old car to replace it.
The problem here is that I have the experience of driving a decades-old vehicle and you do not, yet you persist in dicating to me what it is like to do so.
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40 years without any engine/transmission work? you must not drive it much, if at all.

not always, and unless you carry a trunk full of spare parts, you won't have the parts to fix it.
if you happen to break down near an auto parts store (which is also not likely), they probably won't have the correct parts in stock.

that's nice.

consider yourself incredibly lucky.

nobody said you had to be.

autonomous vehicles will be *much* safer than any human driver could ever hope to be, which sadly is not that difficult to do. more than 35k people die every year in the usa alone, many more worldwide. that's roughly 100 people per *day* and nobody gives a shit.

what i've said is not wrong. at some point, it becomes not worth fixing.
insurance companies refer to it as totaled.

unless it's a classic, a 40 year old vehicle is worth almost nothing, which means even a relatively minor repair is not cost-effective.
if it is a classic, it won't be driven as a daily driver, especially if it's registered as such because that class of registration normally has significant limits.

multiple incorrect assumptions.
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On 10/31/2018 10:24 PM, nospam wrote:

If you carry a fuel pump in the trunk, the one in use will never break. I'm surprised that you didn't know that.
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Cheers, Bev
It is just a bicycle. It is not dedication and bugs
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