That was a good analysis. Thank you. My thoughts were from a mechanics viewpoint. I no longer do that work but did for many years professionally. What I found was that a $3 wrench would last one or two uses but a similar $20 wrench would last a life time. I still have my Proto, Snap-On, and Mac after 40 years and they still work fine. The cheap Chinese junk lasts a week at most. Poor quality steel, poor quality manufacturing, but they look splendid when first purchased. I will continue to buy the best if I intend on keeping them. I buy Chinese junk for use at remote locations for a few days and then give it away or throw away before I fly home.
On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 21:35:23 -0000 (UTC), Leon Schneider
There is a cellphone alignment tool? I have done the string and measuring tape thing (and generally been more satisfied with it than I have been by sending it to shops with expensive tools operated by high school kids), but I'd be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars to do a better job. Tell me more!
Skinned knuckles are worth more than a couple bucks. You don't have to spend big bucks on Snap-On tools to get decent tools. - and you don't need to buy knuckle-busters to get "reasonably priced" tools.
In Canada we are never far from a "Canadian Tire" store and they almost always have something decent on sale that will do the job without breaking either the bank or your knuckles.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:06:20 -0500:
I do have one question about that tire repair but this is probably not the thread for it.
But since you brought it up...
Here is my patch kit on top of the holed tire.
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2. One question I have is what's the difference between a "radial" patch and a patch that doesn't *say* it's radial?
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3. Here is the hole from a screw, shown from the inside of the tire
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(yes, I know the rubber chafed from driving on it for a mile when low) 4. Here is the final picture of the patch (yes, I know that the t-shaped patch would have been better)
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I have a bunch of technical questions, but before I ask them, I do know that the tire is toast and that the t-shaped patch would have been better.
The only reason I didn't put in the t-shaped patch was that I didn't feel like reaming out the hole, since the hole was so tiny I could barely get that tent-pole stringing wire through it that you see in this picture:
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My *technical* questions are the following:
What the heck is the difference between the patches in the patch kit labeled "radial" and the very similar looking patches not labeled radial?
Would a drill work as a reamer? Those hand tools are a bear to use.
Where can I get more tubes of that cement? It always seems that these are single-use only (no matter how large they are) because when I need them, they're always dried up.
Paul in Houston TX wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 17:42:10 -0600:
I appreciate that you didn't take my rant personally as it is a diatribe I've given often, which is that quality and cost are two different things, and they are essentially unrelated.
A perfect example, by the way, is the cost of fruits when they're NOT in season. The cost is high when the quality sucks and the cost is low when the quality is good.
Same with airfare. The cost is low when nobody is flying (i.e., the quality is high) and the cost is high when everyone is flying (i.e., the quality is low).
My point is that price bears no direct relationship to quality but people
*use price* as a substitute for the quality metric.
I can't help but agree that if you change tire valves all day, every day, the cost of the tool doesn't matter one bit. What matters is how well the tool helps you do the job fast and efficient.
Therefore, since cost isn't at all a concern, the *price* of that tool will likely be high (because of the lack of downward pressure on pricing). Also that tool may have a lot of engineering in it to eke out the last iota of speed and efficiency in removing and replacing valves.
But that type of speed and efficiency doesn't generally play a role in backyard mechanic metrics. For a backyard mechanic, it could well be that storage costs outweight tool-quality metrics, for example.
I agree. My Craftsman wrenches were bought in the 70s and they're still the same now as they were then. I'm glad I bought them. Same with my floor jack and 6-ton jack stands, having gone through very many lesser quality versions over the years (most of which failed at some point).
You say cheap but what you mean is low quality. Low quality junk only lasts a week at most. I agree with that concept.
For example, I never buy those yellow-and-black screwdrivers they sell in grocery stores. They all suck, right? But my point isn't that they suck because they're cheap.
My point is that they suck because they suck. That they suck has nothing whatsoever to do with the price.
They suck at any price.
Again, junk sucks because it's junk. It matters not what price you paid for it.
My only beef is that people *think* price is an indicator of quality. It is not.
Quality is an indicator of quality. But that takes technical thought to figure out quality.
People use price (which is just a number) as a substitute for technical merit.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:08:56 -0500:
While that makes sense from a general sense, one of my beefs with people is that they can't handle technical detail, so they grasp at straws to something (anything) that they can handle.
Anyone can handle numbers.
So they buy a battery, for example, by "warranty" for heaven's sake!
It's so easy for them to "compare" a battery that has a warranty of, say,
12 months versus a warranty of, say, 24 months, that they grasp at straws thinking that the warranty defines the difference between teh batteries.
Likewise, they buy tires by warranty, which is ridiculous to say the least.
When they have *nothing* else that they know to compare things, then they compare by *price* (which is just as ridiculous).
Price is only one of very many factors. Often price is meaningless.
For example, the price paid for one airline seat can be double the price paid for the one next to it. The price paid for a tomato at one store can be double the price of another tomato. The price paid for a valve stem on the ern could be ten cents versus the price I paid, which is something like five or six bucks.
In all those cases, the price is NOT an indication of quality. Quality is an indication of quality.
But most people are so stupid that all they can do is compare prices.
I'm not saying you are such a person but it's a long-time beef with me that teh dumber the person, the more they think that price equates to quality.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote on Wed, 07 Dec 2016 18:12:53 -0500:
The problem with price is that you can get anything for any price in that i paid about $2 each for the four valve stems I bought where on the net they're probably 20 cents each.
My point on price is that the stems are exact the same quality at two dollars as they are for twenty cents.
What you're paying for is not the quality of the valve stems, and, it seems, from my experience, you almost never (if ever) get good quality stuff at a auto parts store (where I bought mine).
There are three jobs almost nobody does at home, all three of which I'd love to learn how to do because they can't be as hard as people think:
Paint your car
Replace & balance tires
Align your suspension
Depending on the car, the suspension issue is twofold: a. You have to *understand* what you're doing b. You have to *measure* what you've got
An alignment, like changing oil, should be done as often as you can do it, but, like changing oil, in reality, alignments are done far less than people say they do them.
Why? Because they're expensive (about $100 on sale where I live but I know the price varies greatly) and they take effort (an hour minimum but more like three hours from leaving the house to getting back to the house).
The main problem people have with alignment is self made. They *think* they need a tool that costs $100K.
But that $100K one-man-operated alignment tool has, just as an example, a $20K lift and a $10K laser system and $30K of software to handle all cars and a $5,000 printer option, etc.
None of which a home garage mechanic needs. That tool is made for a different purpose - which is to get a huge variety of cars in and out of that shop in no time fast by one guy.
Also, that $100K tool measures stuff that you can't do anything about, such as tracking and ackerman angles and steering axis inclination, etc.
My sedan only has 3 settable items: a. Front toe b. Rear camber c. Rear toe
That's it. Nothing else is adjustable (although camber plates can be put nio the front struts).
So, from that perspective, home tool only needs to measure toe & camber. Nothing else.
Toe is relatively easy, especially with a helper. So is camber.
Camber is just an angle, and toe is just a distance. Smartphones can measure angles easily.
I just googled for Android angle-measurement apps and these came up:
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etc.
The only thing a home owner needs are knowledge and jigs.
The lack of knowledge is the *real* reason most homeowners don't do alignment at home, but the lack of jigs slows them down.
For example, you need a jig to measure the midpoint of the tire treads wheel to wheel (or worse, wheel to centerline of the vehicle).
And you need camber plates (yes there are redneck methods) to adjust camber.
But the *real* reason most people don't do a home alignment is that you have to *think* real hard to do it because the measurements are *always* in the wrong units from what you're measuring.
This post is long enough, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
The radial tire patch is a re-enforced patch - a tube patch is not - it needs to stretch with the tube. I have not seen a "non-radial" tire carcass patch in years. A radial tire needs to be patched "all the way through" - plug the hole and seal the liner. Combination patches are best. I have been "guilty" of patching nail punctures with a simple plug - and gotten away with it. The reamer in a tire shop is usually mounted in an air operated "die grinder" or drill.
An alternative to a "plugpatch" is installing a plug, then buffing the interior and putting a patch over it.
No patch within an inch of the edge of the tread, or in the sidewall.
They MIGHT be. They might not. And looking at them they will look the same. Without knowing their provenence or DNA, you don't know. Buying from a reliable supplier gives you a better chance of getting the "good stuff"
We have been our own worst enemy, because we systematically shop by price. The auto parts stores, just like Walmart, carry what YOU as the consumer wants - low price. (Which usually translates to low quality on non-perishables)
"you only get what you pay for - and then only if you are lucky" pretty well defines today's market place.
Generally speeking we overpay for junk - because it costs the same to warehouse and inventory junk as it does quality goods. The price we pay for goods includes the cost of the goods (which varies with quality, to some extent) plus the cost of warehousing, inventory, and handling - which is the same for junk as for jewels.
Trust me, painting your car is a lot harder than it looks - particularly to do a decent job "at home"
Replacing and balancing tires requires either reasonable equipment or a lot of sweat and sometimes blood and tears to go with it. Doing a proper accurate ballance job requires complex equipment.
Alignment is another story - not hard to measure and adjust toe. Not terribly hard to check camber, but measuring caster requires special tools.
Alignments on today's vehicles really only need to be done if the vehicle is damaged. or parts are replaced. They don't "go out of alignment" unless something bends or wears.
And if you cannot measure the caster and camber you don't know if there is anything wrong - but your tires wear and the car pulls to the left or right. You can't tell if the car is tracking properly or if it has a bent or twisted uni-body or sub frame. I've had to shift the subframe to balance the canber on many a vehicle
- and I've had to grind out mounting holes to tweak and shift parts to optimize alignment on many vehicles. I've had to replace struts and spindles to get alignment back into spec after someone kissed a curb or bounced through a pothole - or after colission repairs that were not done properly - very often on vehicles someone had recently purchased - not knowing it had been previously damaged.
And not always terribly accurately - and you still need to know the car is sitting level to start with -
What do you need that for? The inner edge of the rim or the outer edge of the rim works just as well, if not better than the "center of the tread" and is how real alignment equipment works - and it checks to make sure the rim is "true" and compensates if it is not - - -
Only less than 1 in 1000 people is "capable" of doing a proper alignment without proper equipment - and only about 1 in 4 (being charitable here) mechanics can do it WITH the proper equipment.
That's my story - and I'm sticking to IT. As a former mechanic and former service manager and shop foreman who has had a few very good front end men, and a lot more who would starve to death doing it flat rate and choke on their come-backs.
You are obviously a lot less fussy than the average customer.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:23:31 -0500:
Yup. We agree. I've seen people buy EE friction grade (cold/hot) brake pads for more money than FF or GG pads cost. They don't know what they're doing, and the auto part store guy doesn't know any more either.
Pretty much, I go to the auto parts store for stuff that I need now, and that's pretty much all I get there.
Certainly I never buy any replacement parts there (e.g., never an alternator or a radiator) but I might get belts there if I need them now.
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote on Thu, 08 Dec 2016 00:15:44 -0500:
But how do you know a radial patch by sight and look and feel? Is there a way to tell?
I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying all patches sold in the auto parts stores are radial?
Your advice is fair that you have to patch the inside, seal the hole, and ensure the belts aren't sharp. Nonetheless, both of us have gotten away with "just" a plug and just a patch.
I figured a "drill" might tear up the belts a bit too much though. But the bit they use in tire shops seems like something we all should have at home because it makes a screw puncture a standard size and it smoothes out the belt tear I would think.
I like that idea, in that you install the standard plug, and then you cut and grind it flush, and then patch over that to protect the inside.
I need to find where to get, for homeowners, small amounts of that black goop they paste over the patch when they're done, at a tire shop.
I'm sure I can find industrial sizes, but we patch one tire a year, so, small amounts are all that is needed (a few ounces).
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