Yaris, Scion xD, Honda Fit - no water temp gauge

"Steve" wrote

This would fail to solve the first engineering problem, which is have a good car of xyz dimensions. You can't get everything in without trading off something else that is important to the engineering. It's also false that engineers do not make economic decisions. In this instance, more gages = more manufacturing costs = less than optimal sales and profit.

Reply to
Elle
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Toyota did not equip any cars with shift lights.

Reply to
Ray O

LOL. Yeah, my truck has the "hey dummy, upshift light you're going to get an extra .25 mpg" and my TA is getting the "hey dummy, upshift because the rev limiter's gonna kick in and you're gonna blow the motor" light. (It's after I replace the shredded factory clutch.)

I forget that shift lights mean different things - when I say shift light I assume the latter one.

Ray

Reply to
ray

if for their own testing, no. but engineers make stuff to be used by people that don't know what they're doing. like you.

so you think an "engineer" is going to put a 747 flight deck instrumentation cluster into my grandmothers lincoln and expect her to learn to use it???? engineers aren't stupid.

says the guy that thinks a dummy water temp meter is giving him useful information!!!

Reply to
jim beam

As a working engineer, I realize that. I might have exaggerated a bit, but in general powertrain engineers would argue that electric seat warmers be omitted to meet weight and cost before they would leave out instrumentation. Certainly very few powertrain engineers would want to leave something so basic as a temperature gauge and oil pressure gauge out of their own car.

Reply to
Steve

80s Corollas sure had them.
Reply to
Steve

Stop drinking your name-sake while posting and you might understand more.

A major component of my WHOLE ARGUMENT in this thread has been that DUMMY gauges are just idiot lights with pointers and are therefore as useless as an idiot light. How could you POSSIBLY have missed that, other than deliberately doing so just to pick an argument?

Reply to
Steve

Me being a retired engineer specialized in power plants, it depends on the instrumentation. (Call that a nitpick; I am betting you know this.) A prime example is the tachometer. Many automatic transmission cars have one. It could be argued to be superfluous for auto trannies and manual trannies. I suppose it is in auto tranny cars because it helps sell the car, though.

I do not think anyone here disputes that some sort of gage or idiot light--one or the other, at least--for coolant temperature and oil pressure is a very good idea. We're talking about automotive design and how systems integrate (e.g. when it comes to using space; offering safety to the passengers; etc.). A contingent of engineers will be focused on passenger comfort, and with the marketing department, they will run the numbers and find that the seat warmers sell X amount of cars at Y price, so they need to make it work for Z dollars a car.

Related aside: Laypeople of course can discuss this topic intelligently, because this is about tradeoffs. Many of these tradeoffs are understandable simply with the application of common sense.

Reply to
Elle

Not only that, but it is helpful, because one is able to determine what gear a car is in by comparing the vehicle speed with the engine speed. Plus, if one has a manual transmission, if the engine speeds seem to creep up when going uphill, but the road speed stays constant, this suggests that there is a problem with the clutch (and soon, your bank account is going to take a hit).

Actually, good engineering means reducing the number of gauges. Imagine if every operation on your computer required a gauge. You'd have one for your disk drives, ethernet card, wireless card, one for each of your USB drives, for the temperature, a bunch for different keyboard settings, for your floppy diskdrive (older machine only), your fire wire, for the state of the batteries, your video port, the audio I/O, etc.

Your computer would have more gauges than a nuclear power plant (and Bush wouldn't be able to say it, either).

What about priests and other clergy members? Should they be able to understand it?

There is some good info about how engines work on the internet (How stuff works has a lot). Plus, there is this neat building(s) in most towns called "a library" where they have books on the subject.

And if you're in school, you can ask your science teacher, too.

jeff

Reply to
Jeff

In my experience most drivers glance at the temp gauge rarely, if at all. It is for that reason that most cars equipped with a temperature gauge also come with a linked idiot light and sometimes a text-based screen to alert the driver. I don't see where the loss of a temperature gauge is any big deal for most drivers.

If you want a temp gauge, just add an aftermarket one on one of those baseline cars you mentioned.

Reply to
John S.

so why were /you/ making such a big noise about wanting a gauge?

quote: "Gauges warn before the problem gets critical."

"The whole point is that the gauge will tell you when some things are wrong"

but now you're admitting that a warning light is as much use.

quote: "gauges are just idiot lights with pointers"

so you're contradicting yourself and arguing for nothing!

bottom line: if you want full instrumentation, install it yourself. the stuff you get with the car is good enough for the job it has to do. any /real/ engineer should know that.

Reply to
jim beam

"Jeff" wrote

The meaning of "good engineering" depends on the goals of what is being engineered. E.g. for a vehicle where engineers and technicians are trying to improve XYZ, additional gages ABC may be warranted, at least temporarily.

Reply to
Elle

but in this day and age, you'd just record the computer's data output. it's a host of feeds available, engine temp being just one of them. in real time.

Reply to
jim beam

My memory must be getting bad... I don't remember shift lights in any 80's Corollas, or any Toyotas, at least while I worked for Toyota.

Reply to
Ray O

How is such an aftermarket temp gauge installed - under the hood, and how is it mounted on the dashboard/instrument panel? How much does it cost?

Reply to
bubbabubbs

You need to locate the temperature sending unit on the block and find a place in the interior to mount a gauge.

When you buy a gauge you should get a sending unit with two connections - one for the idiot light and one for the gauge. Hook them both up, wire the gauge and you are off and running. The hardest part will be finding a keyed power source for the gauge and a proper ground. It's really pretty straightforward if you have worked on cars before. If not, just have a local mechanic do the work.

Reply to
John S.

just use the engine computer to give temperature output. its sensor is best located to get the best reading, unlike a bolt-on.

Reply to
jim beam

Or, just buy the gauge that plugs into the standard OBD II port and displays lots of things.

Reply to
Elmo P. Shagnasty

On 4/22/2008 9:13 PM jim beam spake these words of knowledge:

He was clearly talking about the use of actual working gauges, specifically as opposed to those which are dressed-up idiot lights.

RFT!!! Dave Kelsen

Reply to
Dave Kelsen

Because /not/ wanting one is just stupid. Sure, there are reasons for el-cheapo line cars not to have a gauge, and that's fine. But for any driver to say "I'd rather have a light" is just flat dumb. No way around that.

What really gets me is the idiot gauge- costs MORE than a light, but is less useful (because it doesn't attract attention, and worse yet may even give the unwitting driver the impression that its a real gauge.

Not at all. Gauges do warn you before things get critical, and you blatantly left out the obvious part of the second statement, which is that a gauge will tell you when some things are wrong WHICH A LIGHT WON'T TELL YOU. Hence my examples of 1) a dead electric fan which was indicated as a slightly abnormal gauge reading but which was not far enough out of range to have turned on a light, and 2) abnormal oil pressure behavior which indicated a collapsed filter causing the bypass valve to open, but was technically within the "normal" range and never turned on the idiot light.

No, I never said that YOU read it that way, but its not what I said. I said that "idiot" gauges (the kind that are just controlled by a switch which either sets them to the normal range, or drops them to zero) are just idiot lights with pointers. I never said that real analog gauges, whether mechanical or electric, are idiot lights with pointers.

No, you're just showing the fact that you aren't actually reading (or comprehending) posts, you're reading a few words then shooting off your message while missing the main points. As has been the case every time you blunder into rec.autos.tech.

Reply to
Steve

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