Camry Hybrid prices

I would. There is no evidence that there are major problems with the batteries, hybrid system or engines.

Jeff

If you have Carmax in your area check to see if they sell Toyotas in your state. I took their price to a local Toyota dealer and they met it. Carmax bought my old car for $2k more than the dealer would offer me in trade.

If you knew anything at all about hybrid batteries it is that they never have to be replaced as a unit. One cell may die and you replace that cell. Of course as of the last time I read, Toyota and Honda both said that there had been virtually NO hybrid battery failures so they couldn't tell you how long they would last since so far it looks like forever.

My wife has around 3000 miles on her Camry Hybrid. In stop and go driving it easily gets 36 mpg. Very impressive car. I doubt she would have been satisfied with the aceleration performance of the 4 cyclinder non hybrid. It is a big, heavy car for a 4 cylinder.

One thing cool about the car is that although Toyota says 25 mph is the limit for the battery only mode, occassionally when you are going a constant 35 or so you will notice that the engine is not running for quite a while provided you don't go up a hill.

Very, very impressive car.

A battery that will last forever? What color is the sky in YOUR world? LOL

46 MPG Prius vs. smaller Corolla 1.8L AT (30 Combined MPG) Difference = 174 gallons 174 X 4 = $696 saved per year

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Again with this...? The 2009 corolla is almost the same size as the prius... Actually the corolla is longer and wider for 09..so stop misconstruing the facts..

No, it's not. You're the one falsifying information, for your own weird goals.

And what evidence do you have that there have been problems with the batteries in hybrid cars?

Jeff

Fine, you WASTE YOUR money on one. I, for one, will NOT jump on the greenie LIEbrawl bandwagon and pay over retail for the politically correct car of the year.

Just for curiosity's sake, what kind of a beater do you drive, fruitcake?

99 Camry 6 cyl., fruitcake.

I could be wrong about this but I seem to remember that Toyota's hybrid uses Li-ion batteries. Lithium-ion batteries have a high power-to-weight ratio but they loose almost 20% capacity per year. So, used under normal automotive conditions, they will last less than 5 years.

If they are using some other chemistry, then the battery life is dependant on the number of charge/discharge cycles. Nickel/Metal-Hydride will only last for about 500 to 1000 partial cycles, fewer if subjected to full discharge. So if the vehicle is used an average of 5 days a week, the batteries should last about 3 to

5 years.

As for your statement that there have been "virtually NO hybrid battery failures", are you sure? What do they consider a failure? If the battery had a reduced capacity, is that considered a failure? At what point do they replace a cell and is the battery construction so that individual cells can be replaced? Also, with what I've read about Toyota's battery management, are you sure that you would know when you have a battery plant with reduced capacity?

Also, batteries are NOT maintained by replacing just one or two cells at a time. The cells of a battery are all subjected to the same conditions of charge, charge rate and temperature so they age at about the same rate. Replacing a weak or bad cell with a new one means that you have one full-capacity cell coupled with reduced capacity cells. The weaker cells will be ruined by the stronger cell causing deeper discharge of the weaker cells as well as causing the weaker ones to be overcharged. If you have one or more bad cells in a battery, then the entire battery needs to be replaced.

You could be wrong and you are. They use NiMH batteries. The next generation Prius will also use NiMH, and the reason is because of capacity loss of Li-Ion that you point out. There were rumors of Li-Ion in the next generation, but they didn't pan out.

The Prius discharges the battery only to about 60%, and charges it only to about 80%.

In EV mode, you can go down to 45% before the gasoline engine will start, but EV mode isn't available in the U.S. (though many people have installed the EV button, see "

"). Toyota has designed the battery system to maximize battery life. You're only using 20% of the actual battery capacity (in the U.S.) and 35% in other regions (in EV mode). Of course for longer trips, the difference is lost in the noise, as the engine is always running anyway. On shorter trips, using more of the capacity would result in longer operating time on the electric motor, though some of the additional MPG would be lost because the engine would end up running longer to charge the battery back from 45% to 80%, versus from 60% to 80%. If you could add plug-in capability to the existing battery, and do 80% to 45%, you'd be able to be all-electric on very short trips. I think in EV mode, you can go about 1 mile in electric mode, something not possible in non-EV mode. There's a mistaken belief that the Prius goes many miles on battery power prior to the engine coming on to power the electric motor, and recharge the battery. In reality, the battery rarely is the power source for the motor. Even if they allowed 100% of the battery capacity to be used, it would result in a very small increase in MPG.

I suspect that the battery controller is such that over time, as the battery ages, they allow more than the mid 20% of the capacity to be used (i.e. allow lower discharge level and higher charge level in order to keep the usable capacity the same).

At 20% loss per year at the end of 5 years they still have 32.7% of the original capacity.

Yes but once they are down to about 50% of their original capacity, they will need to be replaced.

Can you quote a source for this information?

Ah, I thought not.

Go away, old man, and take your misinformation with you.

BSP for stationary battery plants.

Exide standards for low-maintenance battery plants.

Sometimes old folks know a little more than you smart-assed kids.

But this isn't one of those times.

You still haven't quoted a source for your claim.

That stands for Bell System Practices for those of you who have never seen the acronym. I'm used to GSP (which would now be VSP) but it's the same thing - the "instruction book" for all the gear found in a telephone switchroom. Thirty to Fifty shelf-feet of 3-ring binders, or several four-drawer file cabinets.

No, you don't. Because you are comparing Apples and Oranges, and a valid comparison can not be made. (And there are other older almost-farts here too, so watch it with the blanket accusations.)

Telephone Plant stationary wet batteries are Lead-Calcium-Acid tank cells, or Lead-Calcium Absorbed Glass Mat "low maintenance" cells in smaller plants found at Cell sites, mountaintop microwave and repeater sites, and the like. They are normally left on float charge, but when the power fails and the generator won't start they get deep discharged till someone can get up the mountain and get the power back on.

I"ve changed those wet batteries. And the capacity loss isn't anywhere near 20% per year, we had strings in service an average of 20 years before replacement, and by then (using your figure) they would have been down to like 5%...

The only thing that would cause them to lose that much capacity per year would be several deep discharge occurrences on that string per year. And you always SG-test and load-test the string after abuse like that to see if they need to be changed out.

Deep discharges won't happen at an attended and/or readily accessible urban switchroom, someone can get there inside of a half-hour and either get the Diesel generator started, reset the Main Breaker or get the Power Utility to fix the feed. But at microwave huts and mountaintop sites it does tend to take several hours to get someone up there and restore utility power, especially if they are snowed in.

The batteries in the Prius are Nickel Metal Hydride cells, and that's a whole different animal. And the charge controller in the Prius computer keeps the batteries in a narrow band between 60% and

80% charged (and never deep-cycled) for optimum service life.

You can't deep discharge a Prius HV battery pack without setting off every alarm light and buzzer in the car - Run it out of gasoline and try limping it to a gas station in EV Mode and the car protests that treatment /very/ loudly.

There are talks of the Prius going to Lithium Ion batteries next.

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