European Drivers Think Hybrids Are a Good Idea

That would make sense if such cars were readily available in enough numbers to make a difference. Until then.....

Graham

Reply to
Eeyore
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Same is true for most sports cars.

Graham

Reply to
Eeyore

It's mostly emotional for most cars.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff

Or economical.

Cathy

Reply to
Cathy F.

"C. E. White" said in rec.autos.driving:

LOL!!! So you believe that buying cars with exceptionally high quality and superior value/price ratios is some sort of lemming-esque suicide leap?

Reply to
Scott en Aztlán

"Jeff" said in rec.autos.driving:

LOL!! As if the typical American car will be on the road anywhere near that long.

From which bodily orifice do you pull these ridiculously over-inflated life expectancy figures?

Reply to
Scott en Aztlán

Buying superior quality cars, no. Buying a Toyota just because it's a Toyota, YES. Toyota marketing has created a huge flock of lemmings. They have their gross flaws, just like the domestics. They are more creative in hiding them in plain view and severly kissing customer butt to keep the flaws from becoming public knowledge. Much of Toyota 'service' is damage control. The domestics could stand a lesson from Toyota about 'damage control' on warranty concerns.

Reply to
Tom Adkins

Or practicality....like my '92 Corolla Wagon...

Reply to
Scott in Florida

How so? Do you really think people buy economy cars for emotional reasons? Wait, judging by the ads I've seen, I think I see your point. While you don't choose to purchase an economy car for emotional reasons (usually) people can and do choose which economy car to buy based on looks, image, and other emotional reasons. Judging again by the commercials, I'd say the majority of people base their car-buying decisions on those things. If that's what you mean, then I can see your point.

Reply to
That Guy

For my money, a gas-engine hybrid is not just a waste but a frivolity. Diesel engine autos used to get roughly double (and sometimes more than double) the mileage of the same model with a gas engine. I know the gap has shrunk quite a bit, but I think that's mainly because there's more money in gas engines, so more research is done on increasing the mileage of gas-powered cars.

I'm not all that sure though, someone please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

Anyhoo, I suspect that a given car powered by a well-made diesel should get at least 20% better mileage. But there's more.

Everyone knows that the output of an engine varies with RPM, but so does the efficiency. What I can't understand is why someone doesn't make a hybrid that runs off batteries, and uses a diesel engine which runs at a constant RPM, the RPM at which it produces the most power per unit of fuel, to charge the batteries only rather than to provide any power to the wheels.

I believe this would work well for a number of reasons.

First, it would eliminate some of the limitations of diesel engines in cars--the relatively sluggish performance, the relatively narrow RPM range and maybe some of the noise and vibration, because the motor mounting system could be tuned to maximize its vibration-damping performance at the specific RPM at which the engine runs. The intake and exhaust systems could also be tuned to that RPM which might result in even greater efficiency.

In addition, the increased efficiency from the diesel by running it at its optimal RPM may offset some of the power conversion losses in changing the mechanical power of the diesel to electricity and storing it.

I could be wrong of course, but I suspect that such a car, if engineered carefully, could actually offset the increased purchase price due to the electric storage and drive system in fuel savings within a few years. I would hope two years, three at the most. IMO if it takes more than three years to make back the price difference, most people wouldn't consider it worthwhile.

If the diesel-electric got 50% more MPG (real-world mileage, not EPA ratings) than its gas-engine counterpart, and the gas-engine car got 36 MPG then the D-E should get 54 MPG and that would result in about $300 per year savings given annual mileage of 12,000 and a gas price of $2.70 per gallon. So that means the added cost of the electrics would have to be no more than $900. Seems pretty unlikely. However, there would be some inherent savings on the engine which would be smaller and simpler, also there'd be no transmission or differential, which would further help to offset the price increase from the electric drive system. In addition, if you were driving a larger vehicle which got poorer mileage, the savings would be greater even given the same percentage of fuel savings, annual mileage and price of fuel.

A vehicle that got 10 MPG with a gas engine, for example, would use 1200 gallons per year, and if switching to the diesel-electric powerplant increased efficiency 50%, they'd use only 800 gallons, saving over $3200 over three years using the gas price of $270 per gal. Of course, the larger vehicle would require more batteries and a bigger electric drive system, so the price increase to the sticker would be more, offsetting some of the savings.

What I'd like to find is a formula which could convert the price of electricity per KwH into dollars per mile for a given vehicle. If it's substantially less than the price of gas, then simply adding a plug-in charging system would further boost the money savings per year and it doesn't seem like it would add much to the cost of the vehicle.

Reply to
That Guy

Apparently you didn't read the whole paragraph. Please note:

--quote from article-- Similar improvements after driving were recorded for "real breakthrough innovation" (72 percent from 48 percent)

-- end quote --

"Real breakthrough innovation" basically means "good idea." So, the headline was correct on that point.

No, the headline doesn't say "European drivers likely to buy hybrid automobiles" as you are implying. It says they think hybrids are a good idea, and the data backs it up.

I will go so far in your favor to say that while the headline would be technically correct if you could only find two European drivers who thought hybrids are a good idea, it sort of gives the impression that most European drivers do, which is a *huge* leap of faith based on a poll sample size of

308 out of dozens if not hundreds of millions, especially since it was conducted by an automaker that has invested heavily in the production of hybrids!!
Reply to
That Guy

I'm not saying you're wrong, but on what evidence is that opinion based?

Reply to
That Guy

Is that really true? I thought the EPA numbers showed a much larger difference in MPG between hybrids and non-hybrid cars than the owners were actually experiencing?

Reply to
That Guy

Jeff cleverly chose the Honda Civic Hybrid for his example. My experience is that the Hybrid averages 46mpg under the same mixed conditions where an LX averages 33mpg. On the highway, the difference is 50mpg verses 38mpg.

The Prius is the one that has been getting the bad press, where the EPA estimate of "60" doesn't match typical 45mpg observations. The Prius can't be compared directly to its own non-Hybrid twin, because there is none.

Reply to
dold

Yes, because if they ran the numbers, the savings in gas is greatly offset by the additional cost of the vehicle. They're only fooling themselves.

Reply to
Larry Bud

I guess we can assume you do not know that cars use by courier fleet attain an average of 300K in less than four years. LOL

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

The headline itself implies that Europeans are ready to bust out their wallet and buy hybrids, all concluded from a few test drives.

I'm sure if you let them all drive Ferrari's they would think they're a good idea too.

Reply to
Larry Bud

Of course it is emotional. The get physically sick when they look at the bigger safer cars that they can not afford to buy. ;)

mike

Reply to
Mike Hunter

I've got 180k on my '86 Vette!

Reply to
Larry Bud

I start with economy - the best I can get for the least $ - IOW, value. That consistently leads me to a Honda Civic or a Toyota Corolla - for my own purposes & finances. Only at that point does it become emotional: so far I've always chosen the Corolla over the Honda because all else being equal - or virtually so - so far I've liked the design of the Corolla slightly more.

Cathy

Reply to
Cathy F.

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