Hybrid MPG?

The Mariner/Escape hybrid systems are like Toyota's hybrid system because Ford purchases the hybrid systems from Aisin, which is controlled by Toyota.

My sister's Rx 400h hybrid, which shares a platform with the Highlander, gets around 25 mpg around town.

The Highlander is a larger vehicle than the Mariner/Escape so comparing them is apples to oranges.

There are generally 3 reasons why people purchase hybrid vehicles: fuel economy, environmental impact, and high-tech factor. The fuel economy savings are probably not enough to justify the premium price over the same vehicle without the hybrid powertrain, If did the math on a Prius vs. a Corolla, and the break-even is around 5 years. On the other hand, if you want to consume less fuel without worrying a lot about short-term fiscal savings or like high tech stuff, then hybrids make some sense.

One thing that scares me away from Hybrids are the Lithium batteries. After about three years of use, they lose their capacity to hold a charge. This it typical of laptop and digital camera lithium batteries. The car battery in the hybrids are similar, only much larger in size. Whether they have figured out the longevity issue or not, I don't know, but if I have to put a $3,000 battery in every 3 or 4 years, there is not much benefit to a hybrid unless you drive an awful lot. $3,000 is 75 $40 refills. That's a lot of gas. John

First of all, the batteries used in Toyota hybrids are nickel metal-hydride (NiMH), not lithium.

My local Toyota dealer is one of the highest volume service departments in the Chicago area, and when I asked the service manager about hybrid battery replacement, he said that they had never replaced one. I read somewhere that Toyota says that they have yet to replace a NiMH battery due to normal wear and tear. Qslm, a regular in this ng, can probably confirm the reliability of hybrid batteries.

According to the FAQ section on toyota's web site, the hybrid system on the Prius, including hybrid batteries, are covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles from the date of first use. I would assume that the warranty coverage is the same on the hybrid Camry and Highlander, and better than Honda's 80,000 mile warranty.

Where did you get the information the batteries are Lithium?

From

Battery Type Sealed Nickel Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) Maximum power output 45 kW Voltage 288V Hybrid System Net Power 268 hp (200 kW)

From

Battery /Power output 40 hp (30 kW)Type Sealed Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH)Voltage 244.8V and in footnotes:

1. Hybrid vehicle battery expected life is 150,000 miles based on laboratory bench testing.

From

Battery Type Sealed Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) [2] Power output 28 hp (21 kW) Voltage 201.6V and in Legal Disclaimer referenced by the [2]: Hybrid vehicle battery expected life is 150,000 miles based on laboratory bench testing.

Ray O:

Exactly thus. I joke that I bought my Prius last month to "atone" for two years of driving a 13-mpg Nissan Titan . In other words, I bought it because of its reduced environmental impact and because, being an Arabic speaker who lived or traveled in the Middle East for many years, I have some understanding of the oil wars that we are fighting. I didn't expect to save money with my Prius, and I didn't do the math, but accepting your numbers, I'll do OK anyway, because I keep my cars for a long time (average about 11 years.) The $3,150 tax credit that I will receive for CY 2006 will also make the car seem somewhat more economical than it would have been otherwise.

I consider hybrids such as my Prius to be an /interim/ solution, however; I think that we /must/ find a way to power cars without oxidizing hydrocarbons.

JohnR66:

You may not be aware that Toyota has a comprehensive, eight-years-or-

100,000-miles guarantee on the hybrid system, including the batteries. If I need a $3,000 battery in three or four years, Toyota will pay for it. The Prius has been around for seven(?) years, and the batteries have no history of failing after three or four years.

Automotive lithium batteries are not comparable to those in laptops. Rechargeable batteries in laptops, digital camera, etc. are allowed to go completely dead, while automotive batteries are not. In the Prius, and probably other hybrids, the engine will start and charge the batteries when they drop to about 40% charge. That makes it likely that they will last much longer than comparable batteries in other devices, and the history of the Prius over seven years bears that out.

The Toyota hybrid system is one of the most extensively tested automotive systems ever to go on the road. /Expected/ battery life is

150,000 to 200,000 miles -- 10 to12 years -- enough for the likes of me, even! And significantly decreased battery capacity does not mean vehicle failure; it means lower efficiency, so that city fuel economy might decrease from 60 mpg to who-knows-what, maybe 50 mpg, as the gasoline engine runs for longer periods.

This is /not/ meant to be an argument that /everyone/ should have a Prius or other hybrid! I like my Prius very much -- and I also loved my

13 mpg Nissan Titan! -- but there is no "one size that fits all" in automobiles.

Davoud

NeoPhyte_Rep replied:

Indeed they are not lithium! When I copied/pasted some of JohnR66's words in the refereced thread I failed to take note of that. Substitute "Ni-MH" for "lithium" in what I wrote, and I believe it stands.

Davoud

If you are a two vehicle household and one of the vehicles is a SUV gas guzzler would it really cramp your style to own an a Prius? You plan on being around for the next five years anyway so there's no time like the present to buy one. Besides, if Toyota can't hold the line on it's price, are you ready to kick yourself for not buying when it was cheaper? Over and out. Nothing more to say. mark_

[snip]

I had occasion to ask the parts guy at the biggest Toyota dealer in the Twin Cities about battery reliability. Same story. They've never replaced a battery, even on the older Priuses (the ones that looked like Echos) and there are a noticeable number of those on the road. If the battery was going to be a significant problem, you'd think they would have changed at least one by now.

A potential answer would be the plug-in hybrid. A fully electric car even of limited range meets the day to day driving needs of many people but who wants to have a 2nd car as well. But a plug-in hybrid that can run fully electric most of the time but use the engine when necessary would be ideal. I think it takes a larger battery and controls to allow EV mode to be selected. Prius's sold overseas come that way (not even sure if they have a larger battery).

The story was that when they started selling hybrids here they were concerned about overcoming concerns that people would associate them with EV's of limited range and it was easier to say flat out "NO, YOU NEVER HAVE TO PLUG IT IN!" than to explain about an EV option & charging if you want to. But now with gas prices shooting up I hope they rethink this. Some people have modified hybrids to become plug-in hybrids.

AFAIK, my UK-market "T4" 2005 Prius has the standard main battery as well as the "EV" button (which I have never used -- ISTR EV at present is only good for less than a mile).

90% Of my trips are 3 miles (each way) or less. A plug-in hybrid would work well for me, the gas engine would rarely be used. But I would think a full electric of 50-100 mile range would make a perfectly satisfactory second car for many families.

There are a couple of things that would be helpful features for a "plug-in" hybrid:

1. A navigation system with a "go home" mode. Not to pilot the car but to signal the engine management system that, in another X miles, you'll reach home - and a charger. It's going to be cheaper to coast in with a "flat can" and get a complete recharge from the power grid than to generate electricity on board.
2. Hands-free automatic recharge station in the garage. If you could simply drive over the charger in your garage and and have it plug itself in, that would be extremely convenient.
3. Deferred charge start time, to take advantage of off-peak pricing. Of course, if a home had a windmill or significant solar photovoltaics, it would be helpful if the home electric management system and the car cooperated to automatically take maximum economic advantage of what power is available at what times.

Davoud:

Steve Kraus:

I humbly disagree. Such a vehicle would not be socially acceptable in the United States, regardless of how it plays in the rest of the world. Only a tiny minority of drivers would buy a second car that lacked the versatility of car #1. Our lack of public transport would also doom such a car. As suburbs move further and further from the city it becomes necessary, in the absence of public transportation, to have a commuting vehicle that can handle a two-hour commute each way with a mixture of Interstate speeds and a lot of stop-and-go.

Furthermore, I don't believe that any car that burns any quanity of hydrocarbon fuel is ideal for the long term, but only as an interim solution.

I wonder what the price of petrol would have to be, and how severe the shortage -- hours per week spent waiting in line to buy petrol -- would have to be to make a plug-in vehicle acceptable. $10 per gallon, no longer unthinkable, wouldn't do it. Perhaps $100 per gallon and a

48-hour wait, with stations open only from midnight Friday to midnight Sunday, would do it, except that our society would have broken down by that point.

Davoud

How does that compensate for the premium price must pay to buy ANY hybrid, over a conventionally powered vehicle? The premium alone will buy ALL of the fuel for a conventionally powered vehicle for three of four years.

mike hunt

That is not the point. At some point in time the battery pack will need to be replaced, even to resell the vehicle. At that point one will have a rather large expense on a vehicle that has greatly depreciated. Then there is the costs and problems of battery disposal to be considered at that time. Perhaps the reason none have been changed at that Dealership is that the cost was not worth it when compared to the depreciated value of the vehicle?

mike hunt

I think that point has been conceded long since. Purchasing a hybrid isn't a statement about personal economics; it's a political and environmental (political again, sadly) statement. Among other things, it says "I want to contribute /less/ to Al-Qa'eda."

Davoud

I see, like caviar, something for the rich?

mike

Mike Hunter:

Davoud:

Mike Hunter again:

Nah, more like brain food, something for those who "get it."

You see, decent Iranian caviar runs around $260 per ounce where I shop (and that doesn't count $1,500 for the Steuben Glass /presentoir/ .)

Potatoes, on the other hand -- arguably more conventional than caviar

-- can be had for around $.0125 per ounce, which is 1/20,800th the cost of caviar. If you accept that one can buy a conventionally powered vehicle that is otherwise similar to the Prius for $15,000, a Prius would have to cost $312 *million* for your analogy to hold -- or the conventionally powered car would have to cost $1.20.

According to your statistics, I'm going to see a return on my investment in only three or four years (longer if fuel drops to $.40 per gallon, less if it continues to rise.) That's a very good deal, and it doesn't count the $3,150 tax credit I'm getting for buying a Prius.

So, it turns out that one need not be rich /or/ even very smart to know that the Prius is a good deal!

Davoud

While common sense says that at some point the battery pack will need to be replaced, that point has yet to arrive on any vehicle sold in the U.S., including hybrids in taxi service that have over 200,000 miles. For the owner who does not keep his or her car for 200,000 miles, battery life should not be an issue. Yes, replacement cost will be an issue for owners who are driving those cars at whatever point those batteries need replacement, but so far, that hasn't happened yet.

Battery disposal should not be a problem since Toyota will pay its dealers a $200 bounty to return them to Toyota for recycling.

I read somewhere that Toyota is looking at developing plug-in hybrids, but at this point, the cost of extra batteries adds a lot to the vehicle cost, and the extra battery bulk takes up most of the cargo room in the vehicle. As the cost of batteries comes down and their capacity increases, plug-ins will become more practical.

The biggest catch to allowing the battery to go completely flat as described in #1 above is that allowing the battery to go completely flat is what shortens their life. Battery life is enhanced by keeping them in an optimal state of charge so another hurdle to plug-in hybrids is to get acceptable battery life.