Hybrids, not as great as we thought

Just because CR doesn't accept advertising doesn't mean they have the full truthfulness that would come if they could hire knowledgeable staff in the categories they wish to stick their noses in. Mike, if you make a lot of money you shouldn't be reading CR. Their "Best Bargains" are nothing but "Bargain Basement". Hey, if you like to live beneath your means fine with me.

I want to add that the cat converter must remain hot to do it's job. That may be part of the "daft" you speak of. True?

Try comparing the 2007 Camry across its various models.

Toyota claim is:Four cylinder gasoline only: 24 mpg in the city; 34 mpg on the highway.Six cylinder gasoline only: 22 mpg in the city; 31 mpg on the highway.Four cylinder hybrid power : 43 mpg in the city; 37 mpg on the highway. Make any amenities configuration you wish and compare the MSRP:

In fact, the Toyota CEO instructed the Toyota Chief Engineer to find a

50% reduction in the hybrid premium. This is the normal pattern for Toyota Engineering, solve the basic problem and then continually improve it and make it less expensive.

One area, last I heard, was to put on a third shift and work around the clock. Maybe they are doing it already. If so, that could explain how the battery went from 4500 bucks in 2003 down to 1500 bucks in 2005. who knows....

What makes you think Toyota is unique? I worked as a design engineer for three automotive manufactures, two domestic and one foreign, they all continually work to improve their products to make them better, as well as less expensive, and lighter while maintaining build quality. Build cost are a direct result of economies of scale and hybrids, by nature of their more complex design and time on the assembly lined will never be built as economically as a conventionally powered vehicle. As time passes the tax incentives will disappear and the drive home price will go, up not down. Many in Congress don't like the idea of giving taxpayer money to a foreign company that builds a vehicle off shore.

mike hunt

Hybrids, according to every report I've read, do not save the owner ANY money period. They cost a lot more, up to $7,500 more over five years as is the case with the Lexus hybrid. The fact remains in EVERY instance the hybrids are shown to cost thousands of dollars more than the conventionally powered twin, even if gasoline should go to $5 a gallon, even worse if it does not. As I said before any other discussion is simply opinion, not fact, but you are entitled to your opinion.

mike hunt

I'm not knowledgeable enough to answer that. However, I suspect the catalytic converter in the exhaust system works much like any other, so should indeed work best when hot. The daftness alluded to concerns the _seeming_ absurdity of generating electric power then using it in the motor, instead of sending that power to the wheels directly from the engine. As you (and others who trouble to study this new tech) know, the planetary gear performs a kind of dynamic balancing act between power delivered by the engine and by the motor: involving the motor sets the desired "gearing". Or that's AIUI. The educational mimic diagram reveals that this mode is used a lot at medium speeds (eg 40mph) and loads (steady speed, on the level).

that's not what regenerative braking means...

When the electric motor is NOT under power, it is in regenerative braking, meaning, it becomes a generator... yes, it may aid "very slightly" the braking effect (to stop the car), however, no more than a typical setup in an automatic car.

Regenerative braking is SO misunderstood...

I'm sure someone has brought this up... hybrids typically are better for the environment (air)... ok, well, the battery thing.. well, I dunno about that.. (for environmental reasons)..

I plan to purchase a Scion xB or Yaris with a 1.5L, cheaper than a Prius, excellent economy, and still pretty good for the environment over something like... well.... an SUV (Ford Excursion)

Well, I'd have to agree with that final statement, because your earlier assertions are -- and please excuse my lack of delicacy, which however seems merited -- utter BS.

In the context of Toyota's current Prius, which has been focal to most hybrid-related discussions here lately, generator and motor are separate (although adjacent) units and can operate separately or simultaneously. (See my recent posts for explanations of the need for the latter mode.)

In a Prius, "regenerative braking" means exploiting the electric generator's tendency to output electricity when its shaft turns due to the vehicle moving. Power is drawn from it and this, by basic principles of electromagnetic induction, causes a reactive torque to be fed back to the shaft, which provides braking that gets transmitted back to the wheels. (The power is taken away and stored within the limits of efficiency in the main battery.)

HTH.

What year is your Prius?

Ummm... Isn't that what I just wrote??

"tendency to output electricity when its shaft turns due to the vehicle moving"

Honda has a gasoline AND hybrid Civic... there is your apples to apples comparison.

more detail for you to comprehend:

Regenerative braking is similar to dynamic braking and the two terms are often used interchangeably. However, instead of using a resistor to dissipate electrical energy, regenerative braking feeds the energy directly back to the source. The principle of regenerative braking involves using the inductance of the field winding to store the energy of the motor when it is switched OFF, and return both the energy in the field winding and the armature winding to the system. For regenerative braking to be used, the counter emf of the motor must be greater than the supply voltage. This means that the operating speed must be greater than the rated speed, such as when a hoist is being lowered. One common application for regenerative braking is electric vehicles. When the vehicle is travelling down an incline, the motor begins to act like a generator and feeds energy back to the battery system.

utter BS?

Don't read marketing releases, read engineering papers.

In your mind alone, possibly. In words the rest of us saw, no.

In the above, "motor" should, of course, read "generator". I had in mind one of the conventional brush-and-commutator motors meant for use in toys, which should work well enough as a generator for the purposes of this experiment.

You know Andrew,

In the future, you should respond to posts with more maturity (please read your first response to my post).

There is no sense in arguing with you since you aren't an authority on automotive systems, unless you can qualify otherwise.

I'm sure your people skills are less refined than your obvious lack of understanding of automotive hybrid vehicle systems, and probably other vehicle systems.

People like yourselves make the usenet a source of misinformation. The quote I took was cited from a SAE text on DC motor systems and hybrid vehicle integration.

Sorry, and where/how did you form your opinion? If you can't qualify it, don't respond.