Is R12 really unavailable now?

I'm not sure exactly what he did, only that it doesnt work well and I'm looking for yet another mechanic now.

Reply to
Jane_Galt
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For many years, the repair shops were owned and operated by Penske, not Kmart. So not shopping at Kmart did nothing to do with the repair shops.

Now, Kmart owns Sears and Lands End. I guess there's no Lands End shirts for you, too.

Jeff

Reply to
dr_jeff

How?

The problem with this statement is that all Obama is doing is requiring inactive well to be capped, so that they can't leak. BTW, this will create jobs, not take them away.

That's your opinion. It is not the opinion of the vast majority of scientists who study the field. You can find their report at ipcc.ch.

I like Marge Simpson, too. However, unlike you, I read a lot about what is going on and can think scientifically.

So you really aren't interested in facts, just sound bites out of context.

Jeff

Reply to
dr_jeff

Thanks for demonstrating your reliance on sound bites taking out of context and rather than actual facts and knowledge.

Jeff

Reply to
dr_jeff

R12 is basically a CFC, if not actually CFC, and is known to damage the ozone layer. CFCs were also contained in almost all aerosol sprays, and have been removed from aerosols sold in the USA. CFCs make a very good propellant because they are essentially inert and do not mix with the contents of the can containing whatever needs to be expelled -- paint, hairspray, window cleaner, whatever. I assume CFCs are banned from aerosols everywhere, but I don't know that to be factual, and it doesn't really matter for the purpose of this discussion.

R12 isn't a problem when it is contained, but becomes a huge problem when it is released into the atmosphere, or so the claims go.

R12 must be captured from AC systems and collected for disposal through "proper channels." I suppose E12 could be collected and cleaned and put back onto the market, but given the damage to the ozone layer that it is known to cause, I don't see why they wojld allow it to be cleaned and used again. When I was a kid, I could go to the store and buy R12 and service the AC system in my car at home. (My dad was a used car dealer, and I serviced several AC systems in a manner that caused air quality management professionals to cringe, and ban the sale of R12 to the general public, and in some cases ban it from air conditioning professionals too.)

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

I'm confused. Does the car take R12 or R134a? If it was converted to R134a, then you don't need R12 and should stop asking for it.

If it was converted poorly, then it will cool marginally at best. If it was converted properly then it should cool pretty well with the possible exception of verty high temps outside. A R12 system works better than an R134a system -- that is R12 systems get colder with R12 than they do with R134a. A system that was designed for R134a should be able to blow as cold as an R12 system that still runs R12, but an R12 system that uses R134a doesn't get as cold as it did when it had R12 in it.

But whatever. If the car was converted to run R134a, then you cannot convert it back to R12. Well, you could if you have enough spare change rattling around in your checkbook, but since the discussion herer is about a Corolla (and given other discussions you have had here), my guess is that spare change is a rare commodity.

I don't know how the vacuum systems play into the control of the ventilation systems in a Toyota Corolla, but I have a Ford F150 and the ventilation system has developed the practice of shutting down under certain load conditions -- basically the vacuum goes away for some reason under certain loads. I have a vacuum leak somewhere that I have to find, and then my ventilation system will work fine.

If you have a vacuum leak as I do, then this can cause the AC system to basically shut down. My F150 switches itself to Defrost/Recirculate, and I can hear the fan pitch change as the mixing doors move around to redirect the air flow. I don't know that you are fighting the same thing, but it's worth checking it out. You can do this on your own.

Another thing with weak AC is that the refridgerant can deplete over time, and you simply need to add a new charge of R134a that you can buy over the counter at any autoparts store. You could have issues that need professional attention, but it is entirely possible (even probable) that all you need is to add a 14.5 oz. can of refridgerant. You can buy the pressure guage that connects to the Low Pressure side of the system -- the connections for low and high pressure are different sizes, and you cannot connect to the wrong pressure port -- and check the pressure and add fresh R134a as needed. The low pressure side should have something like 50psi on it, and if too low then the efficiency of the system will suffer and eventually the system will simply stop working.

If it has been a few years since you had service, and you can add a can to bring the pressure back up, then I say there is nothing you need to be concerned with. If you need to add a can every year or every few months, then you have a leak that needs to be addressed.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

Corollas do not use vacuum to control the AC system.

Given that the car was worked on at K Mart, Midas, and a guy that suggested stop leak oil additive, I suspect that the AC system in the '93 was not converted properly.

I do not recommend that automotive novices attempt self-service on AC systems. Adding too much refrigerant can seize the compressor, improper connections can cause the cans to burst (which is why pros call them "suicide cans"), improper connections can illegally vent refrigerant to the atmosphere, cause frost burns, or blindness, and a leaking system may be have depleted lubricant or moisture which causes other problems. Simply adding refrigerant is not the proper procedure.

Reply to
Ray O

I don't think that adding a can of R134a is inherently bad. Yes, one can overcharge the system to the point that the compressor stops, but it is pretty hard to do while actually following the directions that are plainly printed on the can. It is not possible to connect the can to the high pressure port -- which would surely cause the can to explode -- without going through significant effort. The can has a hose that has a fitting that only fits the low pressure port.

Having said that, I'm not suggesting that a novice take up AC service in his driveway. I'm only suggesting that there is a certain amount of normal seepage or degradation of the refridgerant over time, and adding a can once every few years is not necessarily an indication of a problem that needs attention. If one has to add a can every year, or more frequently, then there is something that needs professional attention. One can use the services of a professional to get that random can of R134a added every few years for whatever the going rate is, and clearly some should use professional services.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

On Sep 24, 5:57=A0am, "Jeff Strickland" wrote:

There are generally no instructions printed on the cans.. And yes, adding a pound of refrigerant is bad if it's not actually low. You start slugging the compressor with liquid if it's grossly overcharged. In this case with Jane Galt, I really don't think she has the experience to know when the system has a proper charge. And it's made even trickier by the fact that the system was converted to 134a, which generally means it's best to slightly undercharge to avoid an excessive head pressure. Just adding a can without actually determining the system is low could be a big mistake in this case. If it's not low, she's going to crank the head pressures through the roof, and it's going to cool even worse. Not to mention the strain on the compressor.

Refrigerant does not degrade in the system. It can only leak out. I agree that some older systems may have slow leaks due to compressor seals, etc, but it will often take less than one can to bring it back to the proper amount if the leak is that slow. Plenty of systems "usually not in vehicles" go through their whole working lifetimes on the original refrigerant charge and never leak an ounce. IE: I've seen 40-50 year old Friedrich window units that were still running, and still on the original compressor and charge. One should never add refrigerant until they have determined the system is actually low. Half the service calls I get are from people that think they are low on freon.. And half of those are incorrect.. It ended up being something else. Even some of the less experienced service tech's fall for this.. IE: they see a system running a low suction pressure.. Some of the dimmer bulbs will just start adding freon until the pressure is up to a normal range. But the real problem could have been a clogged and dirty evaporator coil and blower wheel. So instead of fixing the real problem, they have made things worse by overcharging the unit, which is now slugging the compressor valves with liquid.. And it's still cooling like crap because the coil and blower is clogged and filthy. :( Having her slap another can of refrigerant into the unit without inspecting it would have to be about the last thing I would recommend. For all we know, she could be having condenser fan problems, or any number of other issues, such as a clogged metering orifice, drier, etc.. It can't really be diagnosed over the internet, without someone doing specific checks of the system. And it's fairly obvious to me, she is not up to the task. If she was, she would fix it herself and not even be asking these questions.

Reply to
nm5k

There are generally no instructions printed on the cans.. And yes, adding a pound of refrigerant is bad if it's not actually low. You start slugging the compressor with liquid if it's grossly overcharged.

One. I make a couple of basic assumptions, the main one being that everybody is not as dumb as a sack of rocks.

Two One should always use a guage.

Three If the guage says the level of refridgerant is good, then don't add more.

Four Rules 2, and 3 are printed on the can. In two languages on the cans I have.

In this case with Jane Galt, I really don't think she has the experience to know when the system has a proper charge.

I agree with that sentiment.

And it's made even trickier by the fact that the system was converted to 134a, which generally means it's best to slightly undercharge to avoid an excessive head pressure. Just adding a can without actually determining the system is low could be a big mistake in this case. If it's not low, she's going to crank the head pressures through the roof, and it's going to cool even worse. Not to mention the strain on the compressor.

See Rule 2, and read the can before starting the process of adding it.

Refrigerant does not degrade in the system. It can only leak out. I agree that some older systems may have slow leaks due to compressor seals, etc, but it will often take less than one can to bring it back to the proper amount if the leak is that slow. Plenty of systems "usually not in vehicles" go through their whole working lifetimes on the original refrigerant charge and never leak an ounce. IE: I've seen 40-50 year old Friedrich window units that were still running, and still on the original compressor and charge.

I have to admit here that I'm not certain what happens to refridgerant that would cause an additional charge be added from time to time. But whatever happens, if a charge is needed once in a couple of years, then there is nothing wrong with the system. If a charge is needed annually, or more often, then attention is required because there is a leak somewhere.

I have an AC system on my home that has never been charged, and it is 20 years old. So, you're certainly correct that stationary systems seldom need service, but automotive systems could need a charge occasionally.

One should never add refrigerant until they have determined the system is actually low.

Which is what it says on the can.

Half the service calls I get are from people that think they are low on freon.. And half of those are incorrect.. It ended up being something else. Even some of the less experienced service tech's fall for this.. IE: they see a system running a low suction pressure.. Some of the dimmer bulbs will just start adding freon until the pressure is up to a normal range. But the real problem could have been a clogged and dirty evaporator coil and blower wheel. So instead of fixing the real problem, they have made things worse by overcharging the unit, which is now slugging the compressor valves with liquid.. And it's still cooling like crap because the coil and blower is clogged and filthy. :( Having her slap another can of refrigerant into the unit without inspecting it would have to be about the last thing I would recommend. For all we know, she could be having condenser fan problems, or any number of other issues, such as a clogged metering orifice, drier, etc.. It can't really be diagnosed over the internet, without someone doing specific checks of the system. And it's fairly obvious to me, she is not up to the task. If she was, she would fix it herself and not even be asking these questions.

In the interest of full disclosure, I locked up the system in my BMW because I did something wrong and the results were not being accurately displayed. I don't recall what my problem was, but I managed to push too much 134a into the system and the High Pressure Switch kicked in to lock out the compressor. I took the car to the professionals and had the system evacuated and refilled properly. I can't remember what made me try to service it myself, but it was immediately apparent that I zigged when I shoulda zagged. No damage was done, except to my checkbook. Had I done the job properly, it would have cost me $15, give or take. But since I screwed it up, I paid the professional another $150 on top of the first $15. I don't remember what I did wrong, but I've charged the AC on three other cars in my fleet since I screwed up the BMW, so it isn't difficult to do it correctly. It wasn't difficult to do it wrong either, but it is impossible to connect the hose to the wrong port and feed the high pressure into the can.

I freely concede the point that it is diffucult to diagnose this over the 'net. But, Jane is being yanked around and/or she doesn't understand what they are telling her. I'm not trying to give her the courage to service her AC system, I'm trying to remove some of the mystery that she's experiencing. She's not inclined to race down to the corner and buy a can of 134a and a guage, but if she knows that it is possible and might even be a reasonable thing to do, then she might be able to get the idiots that fix her car to stop blowing smoke up her skirts. That's all I hope to accomplish.

Reply to
Jeff Strickland

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