Mechanical Dependability

That's correct. The Germans just don't build cars like they used to. :-(

Anyone know why JD Powers doesn't include surveys of Rolls Royce, Ferrari, and Lotus owners in their automobile rankings? They include Lexus, Jag, and Mercedes owners.

But what are they actually surveying? How reliable is the survey? Isn't there a lot more to go wrong with a Mercedes than a Corolla? Are Mercedes owner more or less likely to report problems that Toyota owners? Most of these surveys depend on people deciding what is serious - do Toyota and Mercedes owners have the same opinion of what is serious? My sister will tell you her Honda has never had a problem - except I know the drivers side visor just fell of, the muffler has been replaced twice, the plug wires failed, paint is falling off the bumpers, and wheel covers, etc. However, if JD Powers surveyed my sister, Honda would look pretty damn good. If they asked me, they would look pretty bad (I would claim at least 5 problems, she would claim none). From what I've seen Toyota owners will put up with a lot more crap than Mercedes owners. Isn't it possible this skews the results?

I am not sure where JD Powers is getting the data to determine the stars. I am assuming that it is coming from past results of the Vehicle Dependability Study. The 2005 version of this study is on line at

05089&search=1 . Take a look at this. Doesn't it make you wonder about the significance of their data collection when Buick, Lincoln, and Cadillac all out scored Toyota? Or that Mercury scored significantly higher than Ford and Buick scored way higher than Pontiac? Do you really think the survey is good enough to be significant to the level that you can say that Toyota with an average of 1.94 problem per vehicle is really better than Ford that has an average of 2.31 problems per vehicle? Especially when Mercury had 1.95 problems per vehicle? Looks to me, given all the possible sources of error, there is not much difference between any of the major brands. And certainly, a Toyota is not worth thousands more because you might have 0.37 fewer problems than a Ford. But if you do think this, why wouldn't you buy a Buick, which averages, according to this survey, only 1.63 problems per car. Prior year surveys are available at:

04055&search=1 03050&search=1 02141&search=1 74&search=1 The differences are too small to be significant, and certainly not a reasons to buy a Toyota if you like one of the other brands better for other reasons (style, features, cost, etc.). Now if you just want to prove how smart you are for buying a Toyota instead of a Mercedes, I won't argue with you.

Ed

Rolls Royce, Ferrari, Lotus, Bentley, etc. do not sell high enough numbers for significant statistics.

Precisely and from what I've read, Americans who buy American branded cars are the bitchyest of the lot. At the same time, they're the least likely to perform routine maintenance properly. Whereas, Toyota and Honda owners typically do routine maintenance and tend to overlook things that would have their American counterparts at the dealership complaining. And, when something does go wrong, they blames themselves. Go figure.

Actually Mercedes never built reliable cars. In the late 70's a doctor friend once told me that the 2 greatest days in the life of a doctor is when he gets his first Mercedes, and when he trades it in.

Well said.

Also consider the value of the American car versus Toyota. I will be the first to tell you that my 2001 Avalon is more reliable than my 99 300M. I am saying this even though my 300M is older and has more than twice the miles but I am willing to anticipate that the Avalon will have virtually nothing go wrong with it for the next few years. Even so the 300M is the better value. You get a lot more for the money and even though you might have a repair every few years, the Avalon has constant designed in annoyances which cannot be fixed like seatbelts with inadequate retraction springs, rattles and clicks, sinking brake pedal as the engine slows down, a worthless auto climate control system, and much more.

You do bring up good points, but keep in mind one important thing. When JD Power comes out with these studies, the auto manufacturers do not challenge them. They take the data and work with it. Many industries live and die by this report. It has a lot of scrutiny, and is in line with other independents like Consumer Reports.

However, I can tell you, even though I am a Toyota person, I would probably buy the Ford F-150 truck. I think Ford has that one built well. I don't think a Tundra can touch it. JD Power rates the F150 very well, and I believe them enough to put my money there.

Yes

mike hunt

Not enough numbers sold to make a fair comparison. Smaller numbers show more problem when working with statistics. That is why Toyota is showing more problem now that they are selling in the millions rather than hundreds of thousands Murphy's law

mike hunt

If you look at J DO POWERS results is percentages, rather than as lists from top to bottom as they present their surveys, you will see the ALL have problems and they are ALL within the same percentages clustered around 2%. J D POWERS are designed so that every manufacture can point to them as a sales tool. What manufacture would pay their subscription rate is they could not use something from the surveys? They best and only true survey is sales numbers. More buyer believe the Camry is the best mid size sedan for the price, that is why it is number one. The same reason the Ford F150 is the number one vehicle, total sales and why GM make the best cars and trucks, since they sell more than any other manufacture. As well as why Wal-Mart is the number one retailer in the world, sales. YOU may prefer a particular retailer buy more buyer prefer Wal-Mart obviously

mike hunt

Mike, your spin assumes buyers have good information and make purchasing decisions for rational reasons. Reliability is only one factor people use when purchasing a vehicle. It might be that F150s have terrible reliability, but because of price, style, features, etc people are willing to buy them despite poor reliability (and no, I don't think F150s are unreliable, I am just using it as an example). And what about brand loyalty? Last year was the first time in my life, my Father actually considered buying something other than a Ford (he ended up in a Ford anyhow). I know lots of people that only shop for their pet brand of cars. I know more than few people who are only willing to look at Toyotas. Also, you are totally ignoring the effects of advertising. Advertising must work, otherwise companies would not spend so much on it. I am so tired of car ads, I almost can't watch TV. In case you missed it, it is Ford Toyotathon Truck Drive to be Number One Moving Forward Switch Month again......and again.......

As for Wal*Mart - I HATE Wal*Mart, but I go there all the time. The local Wal*Marts are dirty, cluttered, crowded, staffed with surly workers, and generally depressing. However, they usually have everything I want and I only need go in one store that is relatively close to my home. I can put up with the general crappy condition of the stores because they save me time. I'd actually be willing to pay more for stuff in nicer stores with friendlier people, except Wal*Mart has driven all those out of business. When I can, I stay out of stores altogether and just order stuff over the internet. I have noticed that the unionized workers at one of the local grocery store chains are a lot happier and friendlier than the workers at Wal*Mart, or Food Lion (my other least favorite store). I wonder why? The prices for the groceries I buy aren't much different between the stores (despite lots of "super low price" ads), so I go to the store with the happy people to buy my groceries. Heck, sometimes I have to fight them off when they want to carry out my groceries for me. At Wal*Mart, I am lucky if I can force them to check me out.

Ed

"Dan J.S." wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@news.supernews.com...

LOL - I am almost your opposite. In general I don't like Toyotas, but prefer the Tundra (or even Tacoma) over the current F150. It has nothing to do with reliability, since I think neither has much of an advantage in that area. I am more interested in features. F150s have turned into poorly designed cars. The bed sides are too high. The whole truck is jacked up too much. The interiors are too pimp like. The F150s are too big, etc. etc. Actually the current crop of mid-sized Japanese trucks are probably closer to what I need (Tacoma, Frontier). Originally I wanted a Tundra, but the Frontier is moving up on the list. I need to go try one - except I decided last year to stick it out with my old F150 for another couple of years in hopes that someone would offer a decent mid-sized 4WD diesel powered truck. A Frontier with a turbo diesel would be nice. However, if the price for the Tundra had been anywhere close to reasonable, I would have bought one last year. Somehow I never could get past the idea that not one Toyota dealer in the area was willing to sell me a Tundra for less than I could buy an F250 for. I did not want the F250 (it was too much truck for my application), but it just irritated me that the local Ford dealer, without any pressure, offered me a price on a 4 door F250 that was thousands lower than the best price I could get on a Tundra extra cab. I got so disgusted I just dropped out of the truck market.

Ed

And yet used Mercedes always seem to have great resale value. Makes you wonder about the rationality of car buyers doesn't it.....

Ed

HOLY CRAP!!!! Art said something nice about his Toyota over his Crapsler!!! ;)

With black dashboards and 800 fewer adjustment options for the stereo system?

Expected reliability is just one attribute in considering value of a car.

So that is why the Camry is the number one selling mid size sedan in the US . ;)

"Mike Hunter" wrote in message news:CJucnS-Zp6 snipped-for-privacy@ptd.net...

If I knew that, I think I'd have the secret to life. I have ridden in quite a few Camry's and never really understood the attraction. Boring styling, mediocre appointments, mediocre performance, all at a premium price. I'd love to claim it was Toyota advertising, but to me the Toyota national ads are at best enigmatic (exactly what did/does the "Oh What A Feeling" or ":Moving Forward" slogans mean?). The local Toyota ads are just insulting. One of the local Toyota dealers is now running ads where dogs are hyping his cars (you have to see them - they are really cheesy). I know a lot of women like Camry's, but I am not sure why. But then I never understood why my Sisters both decided they wanted Volkswagens (at least they learned from those mistakes). Maybe it is the favorable rating from Consumer Reports. But then my experience with Consumer Reports has been that if they recommend something, you should definitely not buy that product. My Father is an avid Consumer Reports reader and he constantly buys things because of their recommendations. So far he has suffered through crappy vacuum cleaners and TVs because of their recommendations. When he was buying a new car last year he decided he wanted a Highlander based on the Consumer Reports reviews. Fortunately he actually tried several vehicles before he bought one (actually I made him try several - initially he just wanted me to go buy him a Highlander). After actually trying a few vehicles, he bought a Ford Freestyle.

Ed