No help or wrong help for Detroit?

That is one of the poorest arguments I ever saw. In the 80's and 90's domestic quality was far behind import quality, yet the domestics offered warranties like 5 years, 6 years, even longer, while the imports from Japan have always had 3 year warranties.

By you argument the domestics were of better quality, and nobody with an IQ over 30 would ever make that claim.

Because they did!

He would be the exception. When Saturn first offered the no haggle "deal", the profit margin on the cars was far higher than any other GM brand. What people want, and your local dealer must have offered, is to be able to buy a car at a fair price without having to spend days doing so.

The fact that dealers steal your keys when they test drive your trade tells it all.

That is not fair. You aren't even from the US, so how would you know. Detroit is nothing like that at all. Of course, we can hope that one day it might rise to that level, but until then all Americans know that Detroit is far, far worse.

You're not telling me anything new. In 2002 we went there with my mom and my sister and my brother in a Corolla on our way to Canada to vacation. We saw what once was a beautiful old hotel right over the railroads.

Charles of Schaumburg

I still think one has to fail an intelligence test to drive an SUV up here in the 'burbs. Most people could do much better for gas mileage and ability to transport people and stuff with a good mini-van, they never go off road and if they knew how to drive properly, driving in the snow and bad roads isn't such a problem.

Driving an SUV doesn't really make one safer in those situations. You may have 4 wheel drive (most here don't) but you still have only 4 wheels braking and the contact patch doesn't automagically get bigger with SUV's.

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other"

- Benjamin Franklin.

Charles of Schaumburg

mike hunt

I generally own two cars at one time. I currently own a 2005 Mustang GT convertible and an 2006 Lincoln Zephyr

mike hunt

Talking about cliches (and urban myths) the correct statement is actually "the exception that TESTS the rule"... but "not a lot of people know that", to quote Michael Caine.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

The imports intend to make money. Offering a longer warranty cuts into profits. If the cars are considered reliable, people will choose them in spite of short warranties. My Toyota had a 3/36 bumper-to-bumper and a 5/60 on the powertrain. That's good enough.

The domestics were largely driven to longer warranties to reassure people the cars would last, or at least not surprise them with big bills down the road just to keep running.

It might be interesting to know what percentage of cars are sold with longer optional, extra-cost warranties. We declined same on our Toyota.

And now, for extra credit, who can cite a usage in which "prove" and "test" are synonymous?

Automakers test their new models at their proving grounds.

Do they ever prove them at testing grounds?

Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')

No, that is the customer's responsibility! :-)

Matt

Minivans in general do not get substantially different mileage than an SUV.

There is not a minivan made that drives as well in the snow as an SUV can.

They get much better mileage than all but the microSUVs. An SUV with the same interior room and comfort won't come close to a minivan in mileage.

AWD minivans will drive as well in snow and probably better than most truck-based SUVS, unless the snow is more than 12" deep.

Matt

Because it ain't so. That may be the meaning, but "prove" is the correct word.

Yea, but very rarely is there snow on the main streets and if one learns to drive the mini van in adverse conditions, it's not too bad. The interior cubes are actually better than most SUV's. It's pretty heavy, 4200 lbs. empty and holds 7 people and a lot of stuff, too. . . . And still gets

Charles of Schaumburg

Well, that's not the implication at the end of that discussion, is it?

"This is not far removed from "the exception tests the rule." Under the somewhat embarrassing circumstances, that's about the best I can expect."

I do't know how much 'cross-quoting' there is in the various web discusion groups but I like this one: "The true origin of the phrase lies in a medieval Latin legal principle: exceptio probat regulam in casibus non exceptis, which may be translated as "the exception confirms the rule in the cases not excepted".

From

From

Maybe I just learned something.

DAS

For direct contact replace nospam with schmetterling

That seems unlikely. Which models do you compare to arrive at this conclusion?

I bought a Sienna the same year a colleague bought a Durango. He gets 17-18 on the highway and I get 24 to 26. His vehicle appeared to have less interior room.

I'd admit to this but ground clearance counts for a lot and some non-SUVs offer decent ground clearance. Older Volvo wagons and the VW EuroVan(*) had more ground clearance than average and they did OK in the snow. The Volvo RWD wagons, with their limited-slip differentials and good snow tires do VERY well on snow and get good gas mileage and offer good capacity.

The last two vehicles I saw stuck in the snow (just last night, as it happens), were conventional sedans, were off the ground, with their bellies on compacted piles of snow. My SCV (sport-cute-vehicle - a 2WD Rav4) had no trouble in that same snowy parking lot. We did stop to help.

(*) - I'm not recommending that you buy a VW EuroVan. The Car Talk guys summed the EuroVan up something like this, "Every time you take a trip, it will be an adventure." They didn't exactly mean that in a good way...